Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:02:34 +0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU This is the kick-off of the BDG book of this month: The Silver Metal Lover by Tanith Lee. I think the book is admirable but strangely it didn't affect me so much. Apparently the book has a lot of fans who remember it from their youth and love to reread it after all these years (I conclude this from the reviews I've seen). And I can see why it is so, but perhaps one has to bond to it with 16 or 18 when one identifies with Jane, 20 years later for me it was not possible. I'm too tired at the moment to write more so just some questions for starters: How did other list members experience this? Have others read it first as teenagers? How do the readings compare? What do you think of the role of Silver in the book? Of Jane's mother, Clovis, or Egyptia? What do you think of the relationship between Jane and Silver? What do you think of the economy briefly described? How do you think Jane will spend her life? Comments? Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de www.feministische-sf.de ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:25:56 +0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] WG: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi, I think that's intended for everybody. Petra -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: momtotsan@hotmail.com [mailto:momtotsan@hotmail.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Februar 2003 23:55 An: p.mayerhofer@web.de Betreff: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover Hi all, /snip/perhaps one has to bond to it at 16 or 18 when one identifies with Jane, 20 years later for me it was not possible./snip/ When I read the first few pages, I thought, if I have to deal with this teeny-bopper attitude the whole way through, I may not make it. Jane was definately an annoying teenager in the beginning. But I do think Lee did a good job of maturing her voice slowly throughout the book (under Silver's influence.) Nevertheless, I never related strongly to Jane. I found her situation interesting and her character (by about the middle of the book) engaging, but I never really felt like I indentified with her in any way -- not in her girlish crush, or her despair at losing Silver, or her attempts to deal with her dysfunctional family/circle of friends. One does have to ask if her mother/lack of a father is truly dysfunctional even though they are clearly portrayed that way. Jane is the only character, outside of Silver, that is likeable and who manages to live a reasonable and decent life. Clovis acts nobly towards her but appears to be a cad otherwise. Egyptia is totally self-centered. The twins are mini-devils. It's as though the entire society is out of proportion, nasty, etc. Her mom may be ridiculed for her parenting techniques, but they seem to have worked a lot better than the parenting styles of her "friends" parents. I found Clovis a bit hard to believe -- we see him being consistently cruel to and afraid of commitment with a series of boyfriends, but he is extremely loyal to Jane (beyond belief almost -- risking tons of cash, helping her to escape by illegal means.) It just seemed to be a weird mix -- he's got such intense issues around commitment when it comes to sexual partners, but is the exact opposite with his friend with whom is isn't going to get involved with sexually. Obviously there isn't the same kind of vulnerability as with a lover/spouse, but I kept wondering if he'd really be so loyal to her. One can understand his helping her to buy the robot as a lark, a way for him to stick one to her mother and to Egyptia at the same time, but in the end he is taking a real risk for her and I wonder if he would really do that. I think it is incredibly ironic that he's the one who says she's afraid of real men. He's doing exactly the same thing -- afraid of real relationships. In fact, is there a single character in the book who isn't afraid of a real relationship? Jane learns to trust Silver, but it is definately a learning process and I can't help but wonder if she could real cope with a real person who isn't perfect in every way, and who isn't infinitely patient and caring, whose only goal in life is to please her. /snip/ What do you think of the relationship between Jane and Silver?/snip/ Pretty idealized. I was really disappointed in the end when he comes back as this soul thing. I could see it coming at the point when Jane says her mom believes in reincarnation, and then again when Clovis has his fake seance table, but I still found it disappointing. There's never any speculation about how a soul could get attached to him, (or to a human being for that matter) so the practical aspect of it left me cold. Also, I felt it was a major cop out. If he is still around, and Jane is going to be reunited with him, she never has to grow up, she never has to deal with a real relationship with a real man, to learn how to commit to someone who may not always be there for her, to learn how to deal with someone who makes her angry, etc. I would have liked it much more if her experiences with Silver gave her the confidence to get involved in a real relationship, to decide to deal with true love and the commitment that living with a spouse/partner takes. Instead she remains locked in this infantile relationship with her daddy substitute. If she knows she's going to see him again, will she ever have a meaningful relationship with someone else? It's the satti fantasy -- one soul-mate for life, and I will sacrifice myself upon the altar of our love. At first I thought it was just because Lee wanted a "happy" ending (although I don't really think that is a very happy ending, in my mind, it would have been much happier if she had been able to go on with her life and find satisfaction and love with someone else.) Then I thought it was because she was trying to fit in with the romance genre, and the ideal of singular love. How appropriate our other thread is to this book! Even though there is no rape (indeed almost a reverse rape) some of the ideals of the romance genre seem to be very prominent in the ending, and I think that weakens the character of Jane and the book in general. Anyway, I'm running on. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:12:16 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Thanks for nominating this one, Petra! I really like Silver Metal Lover. I enjoy Tanith Lee's prose, but many of her works are extremely dark. Silver Metal Lover is a lighter story written in Lee's distinctive voice. For that alone I love it. > Have others read it first as > teenagers? How do the readings compare? I first stumbled upon Silver Metal Lover a couple years ago. I wish I had read it as a teen, though. I think I would have gotten a lot out of the way Jain and her circle of friends interact. It appears so dysfunctional, but Lee's descriptions seem closer to the truth about teen friendships than many of the romantic, nostalgic depictions one sees. > What do you think of the role of Silver in the book? Of Jane's mother, > Clovis, or Egyptia? Silver doesn't really come across as a robot, at least to me. I don't think SML was intended to be an exploration of the nature of artificial intelligence. Do you? Silver seems to act more as a catalyst for Jain's awakening than anything else. I also think Silver could be seen as an aspect of Jain's personality, rather than a separate entity. I know this is a stretch, and the hypothesis doesn't work with the ending, but in some ways Silver really seemed to *be* Jain, the Jain inside trying to get out. I'm not expressing this well. Does anyone else know what I'm trying to say? Perhaps you can say it better. I thought the interaction between Jain and her mother was intriguing, especially when viewed as a Demeter/Persephone story with Silver as Hades. There is a scene where Jain asks her mother why she wasn't named Persephone. Does anyone have thoughts on this? The story of Jain and her mother can also be seen in a feminist light, I think. Jain defies expectations and becomes her own person. It doesn't seem very deep, does it? But when you look at how many women dye their hair and maintain an unnatural weight, well, I think Lee is making an important point here. That the point is written in a way which appeals to young people doesn't make it any less important. Clovis... I liked him. Egyptia? Hated her. Why do you suppose Lee chose to portray Egyptia the way she did? How did Egyptia's character affect the story? Was she just a plot device? Or something more? > What do you think of the relationship between Jane and Silver? The relationship that developed between the two seemed loving and caring, but neither of them had much choice of partners. Technically, Silver had no choice at all. That bothered me. Why is it that the idea of a sex slave does not seem horrendous in Lee's universe? Especially when we know that Silver is sentient? It's really awful upon reflection, but it didn't seem that way when I was reading the book. > What do you think of the economy briefly described? I'm not sure about the economy, but I was a bit disappointed that Jain did not run into more disaffected and criminal types when she chose to live in poverty. There were mentions of riots, etc., but all the people Jain met were nice. Not very realistic. I also didn't really understand how the socioeconomic stratification came about. Something about the asteroid? More later, Bridgett. Brigitte. Brigid. (I'm not doing the rhyme part; *nothing* nice rhymes with Bridgett.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:25:12 -0800 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 02:02 PM 2/4/2003 , Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >How did other list members experience this? Have others read it first as >teenagers? How do the readings compare? I didn't read this as a teenager, though I bet I would have liked it better then. >What do you think of the role of Silver in the book? Of Jane's mother, >Clovis, or Egyptia? To me, Silver was clearly a fantasy, perhaps the father surrogate Pamela mentioned. He couldn't survive for the story to move forward. I fully expected him to die and leave Jane alone to grow up, in fact I looked forward to that so that I could stop wanting to slap her. I was also disappointed with his reappearance at the end. I thought Jane's mother was the only sane person in the whole book. Clovis felt like the most believable character. Pamela said she didn't buy his sticking his neck out for Jane, but I did. I thought he was moved by a glimpse of something pure amid all the fake stuff (ironic that it came from a robot) and surprised himself by his heroic acts. I started out hating Egyptia, then she got more interesting, but in the end I thought the character didn't live up to her potential. Egyptia was disappointing. >What do you think of the relationship between Jane and Silver? A fantasy, a fairy tale. As Pamela said, who wouldn't want someone totally dedicated to their happiness? >What do you think of the economy briefly described? There wasn't really enough to grab hold of. The descriptions of the mother's glass house in the clouds somehow made me visualize as a sort of Jetsons-like, 60's futuristic look. I don't know why, did anyone else get that impression? Maybe part of it also was the reference to personal rockets. >How do you think Jane will spend her life? I don't care. Really, my guess is she'll spend her life like the rest of them, a petulant child. >Comments? I didn't like this book very much (I bet you figured that out by now). I didn't identify with any of the characters, I didn't really care what happened to any of them, and I wanted to slap Jane during most of the book. I think that Lee writes well and I have enjoyed other books by her (I'm thinking of the books about other wealthy bored rich kids, who can change their gender/body at will by killing themselves.) This book just didn't do it for me. I was also put off by the cover art (I purchased the new edition) and the title. I guess I'm not in the target market for straight romance fiction. I was disappointed by the "reversal" where Jane was forcing her body to be heavier for fashion reasons. That was a nice touch at first, but the descriptions of her as thin were too positive. Bridgett/Brigitte/Brigid asks why the book (or perhaps the reader) doesn't consider the question of morality around having a robot as a sex slave. I also didn't think of him as a robot, especially since we were so frequently reminded that he was actually sentient. It seemed that the focus in the story was never actually ON Silver. He was just a reflection in other characters, a plot device. It's hard to take a moral stance on the civil rights of a plot device... Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 00:16:43 -0500 From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi all, /snip/It seemed that the focus in the story was never actually ON Silver. /snip/ I think this is a result of the limitations of writing in a first person pov, especially when the narrator is so very self-centered (as most of the characters in this book are). Jane never really speculates on what Silver is feeling when he is doing his thinking, or is away on his walk. She only speculates upon his feelings as they relate to her. I never could tell if he really learned to *feel* love, or if he merely learned to mimic the expression of feeling love -- if he, in fulfillment of his programmed desire to make her happy, very successfully learned the responses that would make her feel like he loved her. I know the idea was that he had learned to love, but I wasn't convinced at all that he did (or how he could have, other than this mystical thing about him getting a soul, and the very vague references to him not checking out properly.) I think the implications of his walks or thoughtful moments were supposed to be that he was learning new things about how to feel, but it struck me that another interpretation would be that he had failed to make her happy, and so he was trying to analyse what he had done wrong so as to avoid doing that again. He says, in the beginning, that she has to accept him as he is, but she can't accept him as he is, so he would have to change at least his outward appearance since one assumes he can't change the programming. Pamela http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:05:21 -0800 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: SML context To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU After I dismissed Silver Metal Lover as "straight romance SF," I thought more about that label. And I have some questions for the group. Do you consider SML to be romance SF? Juvenile SF? Why or why not? SML was first published in 1980 or thereabouts (interestingly, the same time as Wanderground.) I am curious about how it was influenced by SF or romance predecessors, and what influence it had on books coming afterward. I've already heard that Nekropolis, our April book, was written as a response to SML. Are there other books written since SML that have touched the themes of human/robot love? Or other themes from SML? How about a comparison of SML with subsequent or previous romance SF stories? Catherine Asaro has eloquently addressed this group on the subject of romance in SF and romance fiction in general, but either she's sitting this one out or has left the group. When I think of romance + SF, I think of her -- I haven't yet read any of her books, though some sit on my shelf and I've heard they are excellent. I think they're quite different from SML however, which was part of what led me to question my dismissal of SML as romance SF, and my categorization of SML in general. What do you think? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:11:52 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: SML context To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 12:05 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >After I dismissed Silver Metal Lover as "straight romance SF," I thought >more about that label. And I have some questions for the group. > >Do you consider SML to be romance SF? Juvenile SF? Why or why not? Yes and no. It's definitely about love, but the ending isn't a classic one for this genre. It's more of a coming of age novel, but I wouldn't call it a juvenile title by any means. You might also like her Don't Bite the Sun, since reissued as Biting the Sun with Drinking Sapphire Wine. Her Brithgrave series also has a central romance theme. >SML was first published in 1980 or thereabouts (interestingly, the same >time as Wanderground.) I am curious about how it was influenced by SF or >romance predecessors, and what influence it had on books coming afterward. > >I've already heard that Nekropolis, our April book, was written as a >response to SML. Are there other books written since SML that have touched >the themes of human/robot love? Or other themes from SML? How about a >comparison of SML with subsequent or previous romance SF stories? There are a mort of SF/F romance novels. A lot of McCaffrey's books are romance/fantasy, Elizabeth Scarborough also writes fantasy/romance, and a lot of the fantasy genre has a strong romance subplot even if it is not the main theme. Some such fiction features robots, androids, or machine intelligences, sometimes in central roles: The Veiled Web by Catherine Asaro The Phoenix Code by Catherine Asaro Asaro wrote a nice little essay on feminism and romance that's well worth reading: http://www.likesbooks.com/quick16.html She also comments on the "rape fantasy" theme in romance fiction, which, according to her, was more prevalent in the past because it offered a way out of the *old* female delimma, how to have sex without being a slut. If the male in the story was the only initiator, the woman could retain her purity at the same time the specifically sexual part of the romance was moved along by male-dominated events. I agree that it seems to be less often seen nowadays, with many romance heroines being very forthright about their interests and desires, but it isn't gone by a long shot. Body Electric by Susan Squires In this one, a brilliant computer scientist creates the man of her dreams in a computer. Not quite a robot story but a good story and, per the romance criteria, one with a happy ending. This is probably the most directly related to the question. The Huntress by Michelle O'Leary Very good Sci/Fi Romance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:14:46 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: SML context To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 12:05 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: Body Electric by Susan Squires Victoria, the aforesaid brilliant computer scientist, is definitely not the shy type. Within the first few pages we are introduced to her habit of picking up men in bars for quick anonymous sex. And in an interesting conversation, Jodie, her AI program, intended by her to be female, decides the she is male after all. That's when things start to get really interesting. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 13:09:19 -0500 From: Gwen Veazey Subject: [*FSF-L*] Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Thanks for recommending _Silver Metal Lover_ (Petra?) I enjoyed both the story and prose, which is uncommon. I agree with earlier posts that the novel would have been more complete if Jane had ultimately developed a relationship with a human lover, but did not think that was a major flaw. In response to comments about Jane's friend Clovis being too perfect: would the 1981 publication date of the novel be pertinent? In that more oppressive time, a thoughtful, aware writer might not have wanted to portray a gay character as too heavily flawed. Although . . . the author seems to have no problem harshly portraying Jane's mother, a member of another harassed group - professional, single women trying to be mothers. From page 4, noting Jane's artificial hair color since age seven and the "six-monthly capsules" to maintain an artificial weight, readers get a clue about Jane's mother, a control freak who is turning her child into the perfect artificial daughter, like a robot. My questions: 1) Do you think what Jane wanted from her mother at the end was information about her biological father? 2) Since this was first person, maybe Jane was not aware, but . . . I cannot believe that "Sophisticated Format" robots would simply disappear. Wouldn't there be quite a demand for these? Maybe a mainstream, legal corporation could not produce them due to public outcry/riots, but what about "underground" production? I'm thinking of the tremendous profits from the sex industry - prostitution, movies, sex toys, etc. and all the emails I get (do they care that I'm a woman?) about Viagra, penis enlargers, Russian women who want me, etc. I'll bet lots of (rich) people would want and be willing to pay for two or three Silvers, legal or not. Thoughts? One hopes they would come with a maintenance contract, Best, Gwen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 00:56:21 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Silver Metal Lover To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I've been meaning to send a message about *The Silver Metal Lover* for weeks. I decided I'd finally better do it before March gets too advanced! Like Petra, I thought it was well-written, but couldn't identify with anyone really. Perhaps, as she suggests, that is because I never read it as a teenager. At my age, I know what it's like to live away from home and have a lover, and the fantasy of the idyllic hovel in which we open up to one another and actualize our potential free of society's demands is patently obvious as wish-fulfillment. That said, I did think the story was interesting, not as a romance but as a coming of age story for Jane. It fits the model of the Bildungsroman (German for "novel of (character) formation"), in that Jane leaves home, struggles against society (though not at such length as in many examples of this genre), and is eventually reconciled to her place in it. As I read it, the really important relationship in the book is Jane's with her mother. As long as they are locked into codependency, Jane is incapable of knowing herself or developing her talent. She must escape to grow. Silver provides the momentum needed for Jane to do this and a bit of a push later on to sing and realize her ability, but the real closure for me was after Silver's "death" when Jane realized that she was strong enough to confront her mother. On page 239 of my old DAW paperback, Jane says: "I wonder if my mother will embrace me, or remain very cool, or if she'll help me, or refuse to help. Maybe I shall find out at last if she does like me in any way." Uncertain as this sounds, I find it a hopeful indication that Jane's newfound equality with her mother (emotionally if not financially) might enable them to approach one another as people, rather than Mother and Daughter, and that they might even become friends. I appreciate that the author left that avenue open rather than portraying Demeta as an irredeemable control freak. Petra asked: >What do you think of the role of Silver in the book? Of Jane's mother, >Clovis, or Egyptia? Like Jennifer said, I thought Silver was really a plot device more than a person. I was also intrigued by Bridgett's comment that "Silver could be seen as an aspect of Jain's personality, rather than a separate entity." I found myself wondering a couple of times if Silver's metallic skin was supposed to be meaningful -- reminiscent of a mirror, perhaps? Showing Jane another aspect of herself to which she had previously been blind? I can't think of any other thematic or practical reason that these robots would have metallic skin, as I find the image pretty off-putting and not at all sexy! Speaking of which, I thought the author's invented term for homosexuality was very odd: "mirror-biased". The nasty implication seems to be that gay people are unusually self-involved. This hypothesis was borne out by the character of Clovis, who screamed "Oscar Wilde" to me. Not that I minded. I found his character to be much more interesting than Silver, and even wondered if the author would convert him to heterosexual at the end of the book so he and Jane would be together. I'm very glad this didn't happen, as I would have lost all respect for the author, but I thought it interesting that Jane was really the only person in his life that he appeared to treat decently. His boyfriends were clearly expendable, and their other friends were almost worse than enemies. I'm not sure what to make of Egyptia. If anything, she seemed like one artist's commentary on the shortcomings of another artistic style. Jane as sincere and humble craftswoman vs. Egyptia as untrustworthy drama queen. I do think that this book is about art as much as it is anything else -- the art of musical and written composition, the diary, the theatre. I would have liked it if the author had delved into Jane's artistic awakening a little more. But as it was, I thought it was clear that she was on her way to a promising career as a musician, a writer, or both. She had found her place. >What do you think of the relationship between Jane and Silver? Theoretically, I should have been disturbed by the implied exploitation of a being with no volition, but since Silver read as a caregiver to me I just couldn't be upset about Jane's reliance on him. For the same reason, this book didn't read to me as a romance. Romance involves emotional risks and choices, and there weren't many of these in Silver and Jane's relationship. Even Silver's inexplicable orgasm in Chapter 3 just made me roll my eyes in disbelief. And the less said about the mystical mumbo-jumbo in the denoument, the better. As a final note, these are some works I thought of while reading SML: AI: Artificial Intelligence (robots as sex toys and threats to humanity) Beggars In Spain (rampant unemployment, the envy of the untalented brings down the talented) War for the Oaks (non-human lover, music, bohemian life) Nekropolis (infatuation with a man-substitute whose purpose is to serve you) It's gotten much too late, so I think I will send this. Thanks for the discussion, everyone! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Travis -- The Man Who "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick