Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:02:05 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man, online reviews To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Melissa Scott, Shadow Man A few online reviews and other related matter Reviews: Jennifer Krauel, SF Review: http://www.wenet.net/~kwriter/Public/SFReview/Reviews/ShadowMan.htm L.R.C. Munro, Science Fiction Weekly http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue39/books.html Caroline Boyden, A Different Light (bookstore), short: http://www.adlbooks.com/~adl/scifi.html Amazon has pulled its listings of Shadow Man; The former Amazon synopsi of the book is quoted at: http://www.sf3.org/book/199 but reader reviews are lost Misc: Melissa Scott Home page http://www.rscs.net/~ms001/mainpage.html Scott's descriptionof Shadow Man, excerpted reviews, background on its writing http://www.rscs.net/~ms001/shadowm.html Wiscon 21: regarding Scott at the conference; some descriptions of papers addressing aspects of Shadow Man http://www.sf3.org/sf3-bin/searchfaq.cgi/program?words=Melissa+Scott Syllabus for an interesting English course on politics of gender, University of Maryland (Shadow Man assigned reading) http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/English/Syllabi/Spring97/7 58Leonardi.html Series of fan-fiction stories based on "Urusei Yatsura" created by Rumiko Takahashi incorporating The Hustari, inspired by Shadow Man [this site contains a breakdown of the 5 genders, modes of address, and pronounciation] http://kame.usr.dsi.unimi.it:1111/ftp/fanfics/Urusei-Yatsura-The-Senior- Year/dakejinzous-story.txt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:54:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I hope everyone who was interested was able to find a copy of Melissa Scott's _Shadow Man_! It's finally time to start discussing it. I confess to having got the book back out of the library but haven't re-read it yet. So I don't have a nice set of questions to start us off -- help me out here. What did you like about the book? What puzzled you about it? How did you like the representation of the five "genders"? Were you able to figure out a way to pronounce them? Did they seem realistic to you? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:35:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > How did you like the representation of the five "genders"? Were you able > to figure out a way to pronounce them? Did they seem realistic to you? > > Jennifer > jkrauel@actioneer.com > I very much enjoy Scott's work, unfortunately I left it at home and don't remember anyone's names. I thought the idea of five genders to very intriguing but I didn't find her charachterizations of them to be very convincing. It seems to me that the tendancy in our own society is to move away from stereotypes (at least try!) - to use gender nuetral language - to recognize the spectrum of sexual attractions, etc. I would have guessed that a society with 5 genders would have even more reason to move in this direction also - it wasn't clear to me how you could tell what gender the person was (the off planet society) Even with just 2 genders, it is not always easy to tell at a glance if a person is male or female. I was not really satisfied with the ending - it seems that the final image is to create/maintain stereotypes - even in the future a 'man' would stay and fight - while the herm way is stategic retreat. my 2 cents sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:48:15 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Stahl, Sheryl wrote: I thought the idea of five genders to very > intriguing but I didn't find her charachterizations of them to be very > convincing. > it wasn't clear to me how you could tell what gender the > person was (the off planet society) Even with just 2 genders, it is not > always easy to tell at a glance if a person is male or female. I have to agree. While I admire the premise, I was disappointed. It seemed that the world, and the people in it were not rendered as fully as they could be to make these distictions and attitudes clear. I'm hoping discussion will shed light on this book, as I didn't get much from it and often was confused by the character's motivations and attitudes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:42:47 -0400 Reply-To: releon@SYR.EDU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read the book a few moths ago, and haven't had a chance to go back and review it yet. However, I have been eagerly looking forward to discussing it... One of the things that has stayed with me is that I was really dissatisfied with the way the sexual orientations were dealt (or *not* dealt) with. The definitions were less than illuminating, and the only sexualities I was able to discern where straight and not straight... Why did Scott go to such effort to ambiguously define the 10 sexualties and then ignore them? Is it because I missed something and they were extensively dealt with below my radar? Did anyone succumb to the desire to produce a chart in order to understand the sexual preferences? I came so close to doing so, and may still... I really enjoyed the book, it is much more *Science* fiction than what I usually read (which says more about what *I* read than about Shadow Man) On 6 Oct 98, , Stahl, Sheryl wrote: > I was not really satisfied with the ending - it seems that the final image > is to create/maintain stereotypes - even in the future a 'man' would stay > and fight - while the herm way is stategic retreat. This bugged me too; a little bit too innate and essentializing for my more progressive understanding of what Scott was going for. Rudy Leon PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:46:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: how many genders are there today? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 03:35 PM 10/06/98 -0400, Sheryl wrote: >I thought the idea of five genders to very >intriguing but I didn't find her charachterizations of them to be very >convincing. I wonder if the gender spectrum would have been more convincing if the story were played out on one of worlds recognizing multiple genders. It seems Scott was more interested in the effect of repression on multiple genders than in exploring the genders themselves. >It seems to me that the tendancy in our own society is to move >away from stereotypes (at least try!) - to use gender nuetral language - to >recognize the spectrum of sexual attractions, etc. I would have guessed >that a society with 5 genders would have even more reason to move in this >direction also - it wasn't clear to me how you could tell what gender the >person was (the off planet society) Even with just 2 genders, it is not >always easy to tell at a glance if a person is male or female. I'm only passingly conversant with the leading edge of gender exploration today, for example Kate Bornstein's work, but I would be really interested to hear what someone like Kate would say about this book. For example, I bet she would challenge the idea that there are only two genders today. I remember reading something recently about the modern practice of selecting a gender for babies born with ambiguous genitals or genes and enforcing it surgically or with hormones during infancy, in some cases resulting in people (in this case women) with very limited capacity for sexual pleasure, or none at all. It seems being "normal" is perceived as more important - for the parents and doctors, anyway. I can't remember offhand if Scott's characters on the 2-gender world were thus physically altered; certainly Warreven wasn't. So I think Scott didn't have to look very far to see what like kind of repression might look like. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:15:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: how many genders are there today? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 06:46 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >I'm only passingly conversant with the leading edge of gender exploration >today, for example Kate Bornstein's work, but I would be really interested >to hear what someone like Kate would say about this book. > >For example, I bet she would challenge the idea that there are only two >genders today. I just had a whole lecture about two months ago by someone in the Ingersoll institute here in Seattle, where gender politics are huge. The Ingersoll institute began in the 70s, I believe, and was primarily begun for what they used to call transvestites--their scope has broadened incredibly since then. There are as many genders as there are people, pretty much--I think this is what I get from the issues I've heard debated. The two primary sex identifiers, female and male, are merely a beginning, and the genders associated with the two sexes can be used as a "base" only in the broadest stereotypical sense. Who among us would say that in order to be considered a woman, you have to have long pointed red fingernails, in Western culture at least? Yet some cross-dressers choose to make painted fingernails, rouge, and lipstick signs of their femininity. In the lesbian community, someone who enjoys dressing with these accessories might be termed "femme," whereas a more stereotypically "butch" dyke would stomp around with boots and plaids and a short haircut (people tend to assume I'm butch when I'm not femming, for example, because of my athletic build). In Seattle I know many transgendered folk: people who cross the physical sexual boundaries to one degree or another, either via hormone treatment, or actual surgery, or just binding their breasts and having people address them as males. FtMs (female to males) seem to be more common than the reverse, and then there are non-gendered people too. Note: none of these genders have any predictable link whatsoever with sexual orientation: I know as many FtMs who have women as their partners as men. It's interesting: if you're a lesbian, and you change your gender to identify male, do you become straight? What about if you have a mastectomy and testosterone treatment, but don't do genital reassignment? *grins* Anyways, it's cool. I love this place. =) For once, I can be who I am--I cross gender-barriers quite easily (most often I identify as tomboy), and people don't try and coerce me to dig in my heels (shall they be those of steel-toed boots, or 4-inch spike heels?) on either side of the duality barrier. Coupled with Seattle's vast propensity for body-mods (piercings, tattoos, and even more radical transformations), I see a trend into a very cyber-punkish world where gender becomes completely irrelevant, where you own your body and can remake it as you please, and as you change. So little seems to be under our control in these modern days... and this, I think, is our society's way of adapting... Heather =) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:03:47 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: [*FSFFU*] Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have to admit, this is probably my least favorite Scott book, and certainly the one I had the most trouble with. When I finally DID feel familiar with the world, it was because I had grasped thefact that neither outsiders nor natives to the world were comfortable with or understood, or even wanted to truly understand their own sexuality. They wanted the world to be as they preferred to see it, through rose-colored blinders. I think the scene that brought this home to me was the one where the lead character is very uncomfortable because he doesn't want to enjoy the arousal when his partner tries to stimulate his breasts. I found the labeling very confusing; but then, I don't like what we currently use for labels, either, with the third person always assumed to be male. I often ffind myself deliberately breaking the rules of grammer to say things like, "one must find their own way in life." This does't make me happy; I just haven't found a more satisfactory way of talking. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:56:23 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Shadow Man Comments: To: shander@cdsnet.net To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sharon Anderson wrote: > > I have to admit, this is probably my least favorite Scott I've never read anything else by her and wouldn't, really, after reading this one. But I'm curious-- which is your favorite and how does it compare to Shadow Man? I had grasped thefact that neither > outsiders nor natives to the world were comfortable with or understood, or > even wanted to truly understand their own sexuality. They wanted the world to > be as they preferred to see it, through rose-colored blinders. I think the > scene that brought this home to me was the one where the lead character is > very uncomfortable because he doesn't want to enjoy the arousal when his > partner tries to stimulate his breasts. Yes-- I noticed this too-- in a world that seemed so sensual-- the dancing and music, fabric and glass in the markets, the use of different drugs, etc, it was strange that the characters dealt with each other in mostly unsensual ways, or that, as Sharon points out above, their sensuality is guarded or considered troubling. I would think by rendering the body's sensuality more fully in the novel, the ambiguities would have been more convincing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:20:19 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: how many genders are there today? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > I wonder if the gender spectrum would have been more convincing if the > story were played out on one of worlds recognizing multiple genders. It > seems Scott was more interested in the effect of repression on multiple > genders than in exploring the genders themselves. I was thinking this as well-- or at least have a community-- the "trade" workers or the "odd-bodied" having a subculture where we could glimpse an inkling of this recognition and acceptance. > > I remember reading something recently about the modern > practice of selecting a gender for babies born with ambiguous genitals or > genes and enforcing it surgically or with hormones during infancy, in some > cases resulting in people (in this case women) with very limited capacity > for sexual pleasure, or none at all. It seems being "normal" is perceived > as more important - for the parents and doctors, anyway. I can't remember > offhand if Scott's characters on the 2-gender world were thus physically > altered; certainly Warreven wasn't. As Karen pointed out in her post, Warreven is worried that Haliday will be surgically altered after the beating while (s)he is unconcious and taken to surgery for her other wounds And I do remember this surgical alteration you mention above being an old custom in the book that is now seen as old fashioned-- but I've looked for the passage and can't find it, so I don't know if it was Tatian or Warreven's thought. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:43:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 10/6/98 2:44:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, allyshaw@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << it is not > always easy to tell at a glance if a person is male or female. >> But you know...I thought that was part of the idea. It annoyed me, and then I thought, wow, look how important it has become to be able to asign gender. And I thought that the difficulty in grasping personality was because I am used to attaching gender-attributes automatically, and when gender was not clear I didn't know what to pin on the person and so was left feeling the personality was incomplete...when it wasn't, just perceived so. Which raises the question...how much personality of a gendered person don't we see, because we have already assumed characturistics? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:07:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: how many genders are there today? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > For example, I bet she would challenge the idea that there are only two > genders today. I remember reading something recently about the modern > practice of selecting a gender for babies born with ambiguous genitals or > genes and enforcing it surgically or with hormones during infancy, in some > cases resulting in people (in this case women) with very limited capacity > for sexual pleasure, or none at all. It seems being "normal" is perceived > as more important - for the parents and doctors, anyway. I can't remember > offhand if Scott's characters on the 2-gender world were thus physically > altered; certainly Warreven wasn't. The most powerful part of the book, to me, was the anguish over Warreven's friend who was badly beaten. They were anxious to get the friend to an offworld hospital because their doctors may decide to "fix" the gender while fixing the wounds. So, yes I would say physically altering individuals to fit into the 2-gendered socieity was going on, and rather common too. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:38:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU The premise of this book was fascinating, but the book itself fell very far short of its promise. The characterization was almost nil, I felt no emotional involvement with anyone. The offworlder Tatian did have the start of a personality, the rest of the characters seemed to be in the book only to further ideas. Now, I suppose most characters exist for that purpose, but I have heard other authors state that once they began a book the characters seemed to have minds of their own . They start writing a story then are surprised at the direction the characters take them. There seemed to be no surprises here for this author. She knew what she wanted to say, and kind of penciled in characters to say it. There's a great deal to be discussed about gender, how we express it, how society mandates expression, how we discover its essence. I'm wondering why Scott chose this subject if she didn't have enough emotional involvement with it to flesh out some believable characters. Or maybe she is emotionally involved with the subject but for some reason didn't want to express that emotion. Perhaps she should have written a series of essays instead. They would have been interesting and better expressed her point of view that this very restricted novel. Before reading Shadow Man I also purchased Trouble and Her Friends. If it's written in the same bland style, I don't have any interest in reading it. So, those of you who have read both, is this Scott's normal style or did she make a change for Shadow Man? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:44:43 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@INTEL.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've read several of Scott's books in the last few weeks, specifically Shadow Man, Point of Hopes (written with a co-author), Dreaming Metal, and I'm in the middle of The Kindly Ones right now. It seems to be a pattern that her books (at least the ones she writes by herself) are VERY MUCH centered on some global political struggle. In Kindly Ones, it's the "code of honor", and the "ghosts" it creates, and it's pretty easy to follow (either that, or I'm getting better at reading her books). In Point of Hopes, there was an undercurrent of politics under the whole thing, but it only served to flesh out the world, it wasn't the CENTRAL theme of the book, by any means. In Dreaming Metal, it was between two governments and/or two types of people on a single planet (I never did really "get" the political parts, but I got pretty into all the tech and the sub-plots, and that got me through it - I actually enjoyed the book overall, and I felt that if I re-read the "report" on the planet carefully, I'd understand the political aspects). In Shadow Man, it was the "trade", and the artificial limitation of five genders to two. I never did get the political parts in this book, either, and the rest of the story refused to grip me. It seemed like maybe she bit off way more than she could chew in one novel-length book with this idea. So, if, in Shadow Man, the central point is the political struggle, then the characters ARE going to be secondary to that; if the author already has this full-blown "situation" in her head when she sits down to write, then having to lead the reader to understand the build-up to the situation is going to be frustrating, and it's my impression that the build-up to the political situation needed much more introduction than it was given. To me, it felt like the very idea of the five genders deserved a whole book of its own, with maybe a personal, relationship conflict to drive the plot, rather than something global and political. The combination of the new types of people with the political situation just seemed like too much to grasp all at once. Maybe I'll re-read it (now that I'm thinking about it, I'd like to re-read Dreaming Metal again, too, to really understand the conflict better), and see if it's any better after reading other of her books. Overall, I was really disappointed on the first read. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Joyce Jones [mailto:hoop5@EMAIL.MSN.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 4:39 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man > > > The premise of this book was fascinating, but the book itself > fell very far > short of its promise. The characterization was almost nil, I felt no > emotional involvement with anyone. The offworlder Tatian did > have the start > of a personality, the rest of the characters seemed to be in > the book only > to further ideas. Now, I suppose most characters exist for > that purpose, > but I have heard other authors state that once they began a book the > characters seemed to have minds of their own . They start > writing a story > then are surprised at the direction the characters take them. > There seemed > to be no surprises here for this author. She knew what she > wanted to say, > and kind of penciled in characters to say it. There's a > great deal to be > discussed about gender, how we express it, how society > mandates expression, > how we discover its essence. I'm wondering why Scott chose > this subject if > she didn't have enough emotional involvement with it to flesh out some > believable characters. Or maybe she is emotionally involved with the > subject but for some reason didn't want to express that > emotion. Perhaps > she should have written a series of essays instead. They > would have been > interesting and better expressed her point of view that this > very restricted > novel. > > Before reading Shadow Man I also purchased Trouble and Her > Friends. If it's > written in the same bland style, I don't have any interest in > reading it. > So, those of you who have read both, is this Scott's normal > style or did she > make a change for Shadow Man? > > Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I, too, was extremely disappointed with _Shadow Man_ when I read it (which was not recently). I remember feeling at the end that there really hadn't been much "story" in that book, just presentation of this idea of five genders without even good exploration of that idea, much less of the characters and scenarios hinted at. _Trouble and Her Friends_ is much better, for whoever was asking if it was worth the read. The rest of her stuff seems to range somewhere around the _Shadow Man_ level. Cool ideas, less cool stories, writing not quite as polished as we've seen her do. I like Melissa Scott. I keep reading her work. I wishshe'd do it better. E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:43:23 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 10/7/98 4:43:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, hoop5@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: << I'm wondering why Scott chose this subject if she didn't have enough emotional involvement with it to flesh out some believable characters. >> Wow. I didn't get that sense of the book at all. I felt that there was a layer that was really challenging me: in most stories, whether the charatures are straight or gay, as soon as the their gender is described the reader can sit back with the usual possible story lines (who can, or is, having sex with whom). You know: eager young thing goes to work in big office where handsome boss is. No surprises in this possible story line. But in Shadow Man, even charactures who were attracted to each other had to sort out whether sex could be acceptable. What, then, is attraction? How much of attraction is appearance, how much personality how much culturally accepted gendered behavior, how much propinquity? I thought this was such great stuff. And...when we read a story, I think we are ready to sit back and be a part of whatever love/story develops. But we had to go through that uncomfortableness too, didn't we? How many of you thought Tatian was going to have an affair with the herm? Would we have been comfortable if he had? And she took it to the larger question: how much does gender expectation have to do with public behaviors, with group behavior? If the herm (don't have my book right here) had been living the gendered male life, then zhe (?) might have gone ahead and done the male thing of fighting an impossible fight. Instead, a real choice was made to learn first and act carefully towards a purpose. Could someone living as a male have done that? What a wonderful question to ask. Also, I had no problem with the genders: male female herm, functionaly female herm, functionaly male herm. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 03:26:30 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Joyce - you said; <> Can't say if it's her normal style, but I and my non-bookaholic lover both liked "Trouble" a lot. The gender structure in "Shadow Man" was much harder for me to "get" and get through - and I've been known to read cereal boxes when deprived of reading material. "Trouble" is definitely worth a look IMHO. Happy Reading Mary-Ellen Maynard Crystal Mist Glass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:38:00 -0700 Reply-To: Karen Brighton Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I liked Shadow Man because it made me think about genders, and my assumptions of gender. I found the new set of pronouns difficult to grasp at first and was surprised to find myself trying to assign male and female to these genders. Scott built a complex culture I would have liked to see explored in more depth. I found the sanctioned use of performance art (drumming, dancing, singing) as a safe form of protest fascinating. Of course as it challenged the strictures of the society it didn't stay safe, and perhaps never truly was. A society so custom-bound had to have some way to let off steam. Trade was another interesting piece which showed that although the rest of humanity may have acknowledged the 5 genders, but it seems to have constructed a new set of rules and restrictions re. who can love who, and how. I would have thought such a radical change would open a society to embrace diversity, rather than try to control it. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:02:12 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've noticed before that Melissa Scott sometimes seems to have trouble blending the gender-bending and the tech-speculating parts of her stories. The perfect example is in _Trouble and her Friends_, where most computer users have a primitive form of virtual reality, but a smaller circle, mostly gay and lesbian, use the "brainworm" which allows direct mind-computer linkage. Get Real! If there was such a thing, computer geeks of all colors, genders, and nationalities would be all over it. It seemed to me that she wanted to link the stuff about the brainworm with the (rather interesting) portrait of a club of gay hackers, and it didn't go together all that well. _Shadow Man_ seems to have a similar problem in balancing the implications of the society she writes about, with her intent in writing the book in the first place. It's not quite didacticism, but close. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >I found the sanctioned use of performance art (drumming, dancing, >singing) as a safe form of protest fascinating. Of course as it >challenged the strictures of the society it didn't stay safe, and perhaps >never truly was. It occurred to me, reading this, that maybe this is part of the reason why some people love Melissa Scott and others are confused as to why. Her books are absolutely overflowing with tiny little differences, with extrapolations and cultural mixings and a little of this and a little of that. I love that. It fascinates me. But it's true that I haven't, lately, been able to get into her characters; they blur together. The last one I read (Dreaming Metal), the only character that I thought I really had a feel for was the AI. Did anyone read her first trilogy? I forget the titles -- the first one was Five-Twelfths of Heaven -- but it was about a woman named Silence Leigh and it posited a form of FTL travel having to do with music. Fascinating; and the characters seemed much fuller, much more individual. Whereas lately I feel like her characters get lost in the ideas. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > I've noticed before that Melissa Scott sometimes seems to have trouble > blending the gender-bending and the tech-speculating parts of her > stories. The perfect example is in _Trouble and her Friends_, where > most computer users have a primitive form of virtual reality, but > a smaller circle, mostly gay and lesbian, use the "brainworm" which > allows direct mind-computer linkage. > > Get Real! If there was such a thing, computer geeks of all colors, > genders, and nationalities would be all over it. It seemed to me that > she wanted to link the stuff about the brainworm with the (rather > interesting) portrait of a club of gay hackers, and it didn't go > together all that well. > >From what I remember, all kinds of people used the brainworm - but most were very isolated/loner types - it was just this group of g/l that met outside of cyberspace. I got the impression that since they were outsiders in the real as well as virtual world that it was easier for them to connect in person - especially since using the brainworm wasn't legal - they felt safe with each other. sheryl > _Shadow Man_ seems to have a similar problem in balancing the > implications of the society she writes about, with her intent > in writing the book in the first place. It's not quite > didacticism, but close. > > Danny > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:42:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stahl, Sheryl" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Did anyone read her first trilogy? I forget the titles -- the first one > was > Five-Twelfths of Heaven -- but it was about a woman named Silence Leigh > and it > posited a form of FTL travel having to do with music. Fascinating; and the > characters seemed much fuller, much more individual. Whereas lately I feel > like her characters get lost in the ideas. > > jessie > > I really loved her first trilogy - that what got me hooked on her work - I > think the other titles were _Silence in Solitude_ and _Empress of Earth_. > I agree that the characters were more fully developed and maybe showed > more warmth? The trilogy also had an interesting group marraige. > I think that there is an interesting shift between the earlier and later works - in the Silence books, Silence is shown to be a woman filling a men's role - she did not have much respect for any woman who was in a more traditional role. Her later works seem to show men and women in more equal roles. sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:59:30 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@INTEL.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Point of Hopes is an excellent example of this; women are in charge of the government, and otherwise, everything seems absolutely equal, and there didn't seem to be any assumptions you could make, based on gender; it's like every time they needed a new character, they flipped a coin "is this one a male or a female"? Interestingly, the POV is from two different males, but the feel of the whole book is very egalitarian (gender-wise, anyway). I'm finding the same thing with The Kindly Ones, so far, too. The POVs are mixed (the one I consider "central" is male, though), and you can't make any gender assumptions at all. I think she does a really good job of doing that, and making it feel really background, and assumed; none of the characters is surprised or bothered by the gender equality. Shadow Man was an obvious exception to that; it's been a while since I read it, but I seem to remember the society being quite patriarchal. Of course, the whole planet's supposed to be pretty backward, by the standards of the rest of the worlds. BTW, there are a pair of VERY minor characters in Kindly Ones that come from a planet where everything had involved 2-species symbiotic relationships, and the people who settled there ended up doing everything in pairs. Anybody know if any of her other books is about this planet? It sounds like it could be fascinating! -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Stahl, Sheryl [mailto:SFStahl@CN.HUC.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:42 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man > > > I think that there is an interesting shift between > the earlier and > later works - in the Silence books, Silence is shown to be a > woman filling a > men's role - she did not have much respect for any woman who > was in a more > traditional role. Her later works seem to show men and > women in more equal > roles. > > sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:14:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Danny sez: > I've noticed before that Melissa Scott sometimes seems to have trouble > blending the gender-bending and the tech-speculating parts of her > stories. The perfect example is in _Trouble and her Friends_, where > most computer users have a primitive form of virtual reality, but > a smaller circle, mostly gay and lesbian, use the "brainworm" which > allows direct mind-computer linkage. > [snip] The "wire" was just another way to make the hackers of TAHF "different" than the other hackers. (As you said.) I seem to recall that she mentions somewhere that other hackers thought the wire was "cheating" in some way. Its been a while since I've read the book so I may be remembering this incorrectly. I actually like the contrast between the "outlaw" hackers and the corporate computer security folks. I know folks who like to think of themselves as console cowboys and the attitude seemed right to me. Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Becky Hinshaw Subject: [*FSFFU*] Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jessie wrote: "Did anyone read her first trilogy?.. Five-Twelfths of Heaven ............... the characters seemed much fuller, much more individual. Whereas lately I feel like her characters get lost in the ideas." and Sheryl wrote: ".. other titles were _Silence in Solitude_ and _Empress of Earth_. I agree that the characters were more fully developed and maybe showed more warmth? " Shadow Man was the only one of Scott's books I have enjoyed since the Silence series (do not really like cyber punk) but I felt that Shadow Man lacked emotional development. I never felt connected to or empathized with any of the characters. They seemed remote from the reader and from each other, constantly analyzing every move and motive for advantage. The culture was fascinating but needed much more detail and development. Of course I love big, thick books that create new worlds/cultures and do not mind being buried in details. Becky Hinshaw ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:30:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 10:38 AM 10/08/98 -0700, Karen Brighton wrote: >I liked Shadow Man because it made me think about genders, and my >assumptions of gender. I found the new set of pronouns difficult to grasp >at first and was surprised to find myself trying to assign male and >female to these genders. As others have noted, in some aspects Shadow Man was a difficult read because it jolted us out of the comfortable shorthand we often use based on gender/orientation. The funny characters/pronouns made it impossible to even read the words comfortably. This is perhaps a more extreme case of the discomfort many of us faced reading Halfway Human. I thought the frequent invocation of hallucinogenic drugs -- smoke, food & drink, even soap or shampoo as I recall -- was a good metaphor for the feeling of disconnection I got from losing those gender/orientation assumptions. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Silence and other Scott stories To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 12:18 PM 10/08/98 -0700, Jessie wrote: >Did anyone read her first trilogy? I forget the titles -- the first one was >Five-Twelfths of Heaven -- but it was about a woman named Silence Leigh and it >posited a form of FTL travel having to do with music. Fascinating; and the >characters seemed much fuller, much more individual. Whereas lately I feel >like her characters get lost in the ideas. I think I started off with those Silence books (there were three of them, which probably contributed to the depth of the characters). Scott is such a great story teller. Sometimes the characters are better than others, and often she needs a better editor, but she's always got a great story. One interesting thing I remember about the Silence books is that the main characters have a three-way marriage that apparently never involves sex, or at least not with Silence anyway. I don't remember a single sex scene or even reference in all the books. Later books often have same-sex oriented characters, though it was never (until Shadow Man) such a key element of the story. Great adventures, though. What an imagination Scott has. Another interesting recent book is Night Sky Mine, which takes some ideas about the texture of space from the Silence series and sort of transforms them into the texture and life forms of cyberspace. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:09:44 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 10/8/98 12:03:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << It's not quite didacticism, but close. >> Why so? Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:42:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Becky, you wrote: "Shadow Man was the only one of Scott's books I have enjoyed since the Silence series (do not really like cyber punk) but I felt that Shadow Man lacked emotional development. I never felt connected to or empathized with any of the characters. They seemed remote from the reader and from each other, constantly analyzing every move and motive for advantage. The culture was fascinating but needed much more detail and development. Of course I love big, thick books that create new worlds/cultures and do not mind being buried in details." Interesting to see that we have the same opinion about the lack of emotional involvement with and among the characters yet a completely different opinion of the book as a whole. The idea of the book"s being longer in order to provide more totally irrelevant detail is almost painful to contemplate. Had I not been reading Shadow Man for this group I would have stopped way before the end. I felt Scott put in an excruciating amount of detail about the culture but didn't tie anything together. I liked the drumming, the fabric art, the use of color, the idea of the permeation of drugs even into shampoo. (All those different vehicles were pretty boring.) I found the use of novel language to describe the different genders stimulating, I liked the glossary at the end, being always a sucker for a good glossary; and I found that I could keep track of the genders and had ways of pronouncing the pronouns to myself. All those little details would have made for a wonderful book, but Scott seemed to me just to have written an outline for that book and needed someone else to give it all form. Maybe she needs to work in cooperation with another author, she can provide the ideas and points of interest and the other author could provide the literature. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:09:53 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Re _The Kindly Ones_ >The POVs are mixed (the one I consider "central" is male, though), and you >can't make any gender assumptions at all Especially as the gender of the character I would consider 'central' (may not be the same one! which one is yours?) (if a multiple viewpoint story can have a 'central' character) is never defined at all! Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:28:00 -0700 Reply-To: Sandy.Candioglos@INTEL.COM Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hmmm....Darn it, did I get bit by that again? We're probably thinking of the same character, the "medium", Trey. I think it was probably the name that threw me off; too much like Troy, which is definitely male in my mind. Pending me actually finding a gendered pronoun associated with Trey, I'll retract my statement about the "central" character being male. *sigh*. Thanks for pointing that out, it'll make reading the rest of the book even more interesting! :) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Lesley Hall [mailto:Lesley_Hall@CLASSIC.MSN.COM] > Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 10:10 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man > > > Re _The Kindly Ones_ > >The POVs are mixed (the one I consider "central" is male, > though), and you > >can't make any gender assumptions at all > > Especially as the gender of the character I would consider > 'central' (may not > be the same one! which one is yours?) (if a multiple > viewpoint story can have > a 'central' character) is never defined at all! > Lesley > Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:19:02 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: _Shadow Man_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Having finally managed to disinter and re-read my copy of this, I found myself struck by the way in which Mhyre Tatian still uses gender as a model for assumptions about individuals: i.e. even though there are 5 accepted genders people aren't regarded as individuals but as 'woman, man, fem, mem or herm'. Tatian is always thinking of people as 'more like an X than a Y' (when Y is what their accepted gender is) or 'not the stereotypical Y', and when Warraven makes his decision to leave rather than stay and fight, thinks of it as typically 'herm' (a 'real man' would stay and fight... or would he? surely anyone not totally under the dictatorship of testosterone might occasionally be aware of the sense of a strategic withdrawal?). It also occurred to me that perhaps even conceding 5 genders, on the basis of actual genital conformation, was a somewhat coarse measure for dealing with the proliferation of intersexuality as a result of the mutation. From my own reading on intersexual conditions these are in fact much more complex than this! I don't think Melissa Scott meant us to read the Concord system as ideal (it clearly has scripted but I found rather vague rules about sexual appropriateness), and perhaps she was also making the point that having 5 pigeonholes to slot people into isn't really that much of an advance over 2. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:35:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man Comments: To: Sandy Candioglos To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > the feel of the whole book is very egalitarian (gender-wise, anyway). I'm > finding the same thing with The Kindly Ones, so far, too. The POVs are > mixed (the one I consider "central" is male, though), and you can't make any > gender assumptions at all. I think she does a really good job of doing > that, and making it feel really background, and assumed; none of the > characters is surprised or bothered by the gender equality. I really enjoy that about all of Scott's books. It says alot about most fiction that the lack of gender assumption feels quite strange. I understand why a lot of people might not find Scott's books to be page-turners, but I really enjoy exactly this aspect of her writing. ****The Kindly Ones spoiler alert ****** Another thing I really like about *The Kindly Ones* is that most of the characters get wiped out halfway through the book. The second part of the novel has almost an entirely new cast of characters, in which seemingly minor characters from part 1 become central. This is a very gutsy move, openly foregrounding idea development over character. We end up not being able to get close to any but a few characters, which forces the concepts on us. Again, this might not be attractive to some readers, but it really is quite a neat rhetorical strategy. Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university But play, you must, A tune beyond us, yet ourselves, A tune upon the blue guitar Of things exactly as they are -Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:23:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tessa Vaughn Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: _Shadow Man_ To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > Having finally managed to disinter and re-read my copy of this, I found myself > struck by the way in which Mhyre Tatian still uses gender as a model for > assumptions about individuals: i.e. even though there are 5 accepted genders > people aren't regarded as individuals but as 'woman, man, fem, mem or herm'. Some people seem surprised at this, but I was not. In fact, I applauded Scott on her incorporation of this. It seems a characteristic of humanity to really need (as Lesley says) their "pigeonholes". Tatian doesn't break out of this train of thought. He's been trained to see these 5 genders as being based on physiology, i.e, body determines characteristics. Sad, but certainly how many people view gender today. I found Raven to be the most interesting because zhe wasn't concerned so much about what gender a person was but what they were like. Something I wish everyone did! I found it interesting that although zhe was comfortable being a herm, zhe continued to identify zheself as a man. Even at the end, it seems. Raven became the leader, in a sense, more because zhe wanted people to be able to identify themselves as they saw fit. Or, am I totally off the wall here? That, I really appreciated because it doesn't matter how many *physical* genders there are, what is more important is, how a person thinks of themselves and how much of the societal view of gender do they want to take? Because, that's what gender really is. Not *just* the genitalia but also the characteristics that have been assigned, by society, to each 'sex'. > appropriateness), and perhaps she was also making the point that having 5 > pigeonholes to slot people into isn't really that much of an advance over 2. I thought this was exactly the point she was making here. Tessa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:12:04 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:09:44 EDT >From: "Demetria M. Shew" >Subject: Re: BDG Shadow Man > >In a message dated 10/8/98 12:03:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > ><< It's not quite > didacticism, but close. >> > > >Why so? > >Madrone > Well, it seems to me that Melissa Scott (and lots of other writers, too) sometimes betrays her own vision by trying to bend it to fit her preconception of what her fiction "should be about." She strives for relevance in a way that sometimes diminishes the appeal of her fiction for me. It's far from being agitprop, but it still bugs me. I like politics in my fiction, actually, but not this way. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:11:46 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 10/13/98 8:47:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Well, it seems to me that Melissa Scott (and lots of other writers, too) sometimes betrays her own vision by trying to bend it to fit her preconception of what her fiction "should be about." She strives for relevance in a way that sometimes diminishes the appeal of her fiction for me. It's far from being agitprop, but it still bugs me. I like politics in my fiction, actually, but not this way. >> I am sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by the above. agitprop? How Do you like politics in your fiction? Was it politics? Hm. maybe you and I just are not on the same wavelength. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:35:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I'm wondering if there are other examples of books that attempt to depict alternate models of human genders, and how they compare with Shadow Man. I'm more interested here in gender than sexual orientation, though both are addressed in Shadow Man. One example as I mentioned before is Halfway Human, where we see the effect of "absence" of gender. In a sense, it's a three-gendered society, even if they don't recognize it, at least during the story line. It is also like Shadow Man in that it focuses on the effect of repression of gender diversity. Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis stories also use a third gender, which serves as a kind of genetic waring blender. Over the three books we see the integration of this alien model with human genders, but it's more shown as the effect on specific individuals rather than a society as I recall. I understand that Stephen Leigh's Dark Water's Embrace also includes some form of alternate gender representation, but I haven't read it yet. There are also books that involve individuals changing gender, such as Le Guin's classic Left Hand of Darkness (I think that's the one) or Tanith Lee's Drinking Sapphire Wine. But these don't necessarily play with the basic two-gender model to the same extent. I really couldn't come up with any other books that attempt what Scott has attempted, and that in itself surprised me. Lots of opportunity here, clearly. Perhaps others can name some books I have overlooked. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:57:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hello, all! I'm brand new on the list. I suppose I ought to lurk a while and get a feel for the territory, but I'm working with alternate models of gender. I am using _Changing Ones, Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America_ as my inspiration. It's a recent hardcover by Will Roscoe. He won the Margaret Mead award for his first book _The Zuni Man-Woman_. Another science fiction that deals with multiple genders: If I remember correctly Rebecca Ore's series, Becoming Human, had at least one alien species with three genders. I seem to remember the human protagonist living with a 3 gender family. I can't remember if it became temporarily a menage a quatre. I am working on a epic fantasy with something like 5 different ethnic groups. One recognizes four possible genders. Much of the heroine's adolescent problems stem from the fact that her father refuses to acknowledge her as being fourth gender. Eventually she loses her place in that society and has to go out into the wide, wicked world. There are other characters who suffer because their society doesn't offer a gender choice. I don't know the reference to Shadow Man, but I am eager to see where this thread will go. Rebecca At 09:23 PM 10/14/98 CST, you wrote: >I'm wondering if there are other examples of books that attempt to depict >alternate models of human genders, and how they compare with Shadow Man. >I'm more interested here in gender than sexual orientation, though both are >addressed in Shadow Man. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:11:40 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Your novel sounds very interesting. How close are you to being done? I'm also a writer-- I just finished my first novel. I'm always interesting in hearing about other writer's with interesting projects. Welcome to the group. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:25:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Allyson, Thanks for asking. It's always interesting stepping into a new group. Are we mostly readers here or a mixture of readers and writers? I have to confess I've mostly been reading mysteries lately because they are short and have such a wide diversity. However, I have been pushing myself recently to find new sf/f writers. Are you writing science fiction or fantasy? I am working on a fantasy series. I figure it will be six or seven books. Book One(about 650 pages)is "finished." I am cleaning up some continuity problems and doing late rewriting to accomodate four genders. I just finished the first draft on Book Two. It's currently about 450 pages. The characters totally went off on a tangent, and I had to wrap it up way short of my projected 600 page count. Because it broke off unexpectly, I now have about four chapters and two thirds of an outline left over for Book Three. The outline for Book Three will probably become Book Four. And because I had originally started the story twenty years in the future, I have big chunks of text that will go into Five, Six, and Seven. I'm hoping to land a three-book contract, so I can shuck my full-time job and devote myself to writing. Right now I'm trying to network my way to a good agent. Either that or win the lottery. . . Rebecca At 04:16 PM 10/15/98 CST, you wrote: >Your novel sounds very interesting. How close are you to being done? >I'm also a writer-- I just finished my first novel. I'm always >interesting in hearing about other writer's with interesting projects. >Welcome to the group. >--Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:27:18 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Your project sounds very interesting and ambitious-- I'm having trouble starting my second novel-- I can't imagine writing a trilogy! I, too am trying to find a good agent. It will be difficult, I think, because my novel is kind of genre-bending. It's a quasi-historical novel set during the bubonic plague, a revisionist history of St. Catherine of Siena's life. I don't know if there are other writer's on the list, as I am kind of new to the list myself. It would be interesting to hear about the work of other writers on the list if there are some. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:51:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Allyson, At 02:30 PM 10/16/98 CST, you wrote: >Your project sounds very interesting and ambitious-- I'm having trouble >starting my second novel-- I can't imagine writing a trilogy! I was completely astonished by Book Two. Walk-ons from Book One, who did not even have proper names, suddenly became major characters. I had characters with similar names who were never intended to MEET suddenly go off together on an adventure and make me work like a dog to keep them separate in the reader's mind. I surrendered to the process and let them work. > >I, too am trying to find a good agent. It will be difficult, I think, >because my novel is kind of genre-bending. It's a quasi-historical >novel set during the bubonic plague, a revisionist history of St. >Catherine of Siena's life. Sounds fascinating. What we need is a showcase for stuff that's out of the ordinary. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 01:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: other representations of gender? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > I'm wondering if there are other examples of books that attempt to depict > alternate models of human genders, and how they compare with Shadow Man. Hi Jennifer, This isn't exactly a model of human gender, but Isaac Asimov's *The Gods Themselves* has a very interesting segment on a tri-gendered alien society that includes a Rational, a Parental and an Emotional. The Rational and Parental are referred to by male pronouns, the Emotional by female ones. The model is complicated by the division of the society into the Hard Ones and the Soft Ones (the Soft Ones are those with this gender division). When they "pass on" the Rational, Parental and Emotion combine to form a Hard One. The Hard Ones have social control. The book is a fairly quick read, and the segment on these aliens only makes about a third of it. I would definitely recommend! pam bedore simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:27:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Back to SF - Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Pat wrote: > Anyway, I can only think of two ways the use of hyperluminal would > produce both kinds of intersexed children (leaving herms out of it for > now.) Either it threw the androgen-generating system into chaos, so that > you had unexpected surges and unexpected lacks, or it offset the effects > of FTL travel and one increased and the other decreased the androgen, both > offsetting each other in a chaotic fashion. I found it interesting that Melissa Scott chose to include only three "non-standard" genders. In reality there are a lot more than that. I was kind of put off, though, by the presence of "assigned behavior" for the five genders. It reminded me of the present-day stereotypes. By the character and "common manner of action", the fems in Shadow Man reminded me of the traditional depiction of drag queens, strong-minded and glamorous; mems -- of the most sterotypical images of "butch" lesbians, unemotional and "good with machinery"; and herms -- of the image of the less "out" gay (or bisexual) men as "kinda men, but not completely". Especially that last idea of a "man's way" vs. "herm's way" of resolving a conflict. I really did not see what would make a herm more likely to leave and come back than to stay there and sacrifice zimself, other than common sense. I was wondering if the author used this approach on purpose, to expose the offworlder's gender-stereotyped thinking, but I'm not sure. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: [*FSFFU*] Back to SF - Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sorry to be so late with this post - it took a while coming in the mail. I noticed that of the Concord's 5 genders, the fems and mems not only exist on Earth today, but the biology is fairly well understood. In both cases we're looking at androgen. A fem results when a male embryo doesn't get any, or the androgen receptors don't work or do not exist. A mem results when a female embryo gets too much. One of Faye Kellerman's recent murder mysteries has a plot point turn on a young man acting as if he has something to hide. His secret is that he's a mem, and his parents, discovering this, tried to raise him as a girl and even send him in for "corrective" surgery. And on the athletic field, chromosome testing of female athletes has turned up the occasional fem, which has generally come as a total shock to the athlete involved. Oddly enough, this started during the Cold War when we suspected Eastern European countries of entering female impersonators on their womens' teams in order to win. Our "evidence" was that they looked terribly "unfeminine." I think what they were really seeing was steroid use. Anyway, I can only think of two ways the use of hyperluminal would produce both kinds of intersexed children (leaving herms out of it for now.) Either it threw the androgen-generating system into chaos, so that you had unexpected surges and unexpected lacks, or it offset the effects of FTL travel and one increased and the other decreased the androgen, both offsetting each other in a chaotic fashion. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Shadow Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU The URL below is a page from Melissa Scott's website. She addresses Shadow Man from her view. I found it informative. http://www.rscs.net/~ms001/shadowm.html Dont recall of this was on K. Friello's list of references or not. If I am being redundant in that regard, I do apologize. By the by, I loved Shadow Man unequivocally so I am unable to comment except gushingly. Unnecessary at this late a date. Back from travels, donnaneely ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:56:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Trouble and her friends -- some spoilers To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I just finished reading this book by Melissa Scott, and I loved it. It is _way_ better written than the _Shadow Man_, and the descriptions of virtual reality would make _Snow Crash_ and other trash of that sort look even more bleak and primitive. Trouble and Her Friends has great characters, captivating plot, and realistic presentation -- everything that makes it one of the best sf adventure stories I ever read. Besides, the attitude of the "mainstream" hackers (mostly white, male, and rich) towards women and queers who also use "brainworm" I think was a great example of how even people who consider themselves extremely progressive can be just as arrogant and sexist jerks as their less educated fellow male chauvinists. Kind of reminded me of certain individuals on the list who dismiss anyone's opinion as inadequate from the heights of their imaginary expertise drawn from completely irrelevant academic knowledge. The intellectual snobs, you know. The "go read all the works existing on the subject plus study all the hard sciences as I did before you dare to argue with me" ones. Melissa Scott's book show that those kind of smug types still dominate the society in the remote future. Which is kind of sad. It's true that it is so much fun to read a book where they exist only as a unique genetical abberation, like in Samuel Delaney's _Triton_, and even there fail miserably as they deserve. However, the idea that there will still be a lot of gender, race, and sex-preference inequality even in a hundred years is probably more realistic. What's important, though, is that despite all that socially-enforced crap, the heroes of this book succeed against all odds. Even when Trouble realizes that her enemies will never give her credit for her victory over the evil guy, simply because it's impossible for them to admit that "some dyke" could have beaten the "greatest man" they all admired without some technological foul play, she still goes into the fight. The majority of people might be idiots, but it's not a reason not to do what has to be done. Those of you who read only Shadow Man of Scott's work and hated it -- this one is very, very different. Give it a shot -- you might find it worth it. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf