Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:27:48 +0100 From: Jane Fletcher Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Has the discussion of Remnant Population been postponed, or have I been losing e-mails? I know my ISP was a bit erratic a short while back. Jane ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:27:58 -0500 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Actually, I was just collecting my thoughts about Remnant Population, so I might as well pop in, here. I find that as I get older, I am becoming more and more like Ofelia (sp?). The inner dialogue that goes along with the outward, "acceptable" responses has become a lot more . . . well, I'm a lot less charitable than I used to be. I'm less inclined to think that I've missed something, and more inclined to think "they" have missed the essentials. Also, I'm not *quite* at the point where I'm regretting the roads not taken due to other people's visions of who I was/ought to be, but if I were in my mid 70s, right now, rather than my mid 50s... I got hung up by other folks' valuations of me, early on. At what point do we start the point of independent self-definition and self-actuation? Elizabeth On 10 Apr 00, at 20:27, Jane Fletcher wrote: > Has the discussion of Remnant Population been postponed, or have I > been losing e-mails? I know my ISP was a bit erratic a short while > back. -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:21:54 +0100 From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi all I should start by saying that I really enjoyed most of this book. I loved the character of Ofelia and the way the plot unfolded. However I'm afraid my enjoyment was marred by the ending. After high-lighting the crass stereotyping of old women, Elizabeth Moon then gave an even more one-dimensional stereotyping of the academics. In my experience the people most likely to confuse education with intelligence are those who possess neither. Anthropology professors are only too eager to sit down in mud-huts and listen to the tales of grand-mothers. The character of Bilong, in particular, was bordering on offensive to linguists. It is a shame to pick on what is only a minor detail of the plot - had Moon said that the bunch were a 3rd rate team, who just happened to be in the area and were diverted when the crisis arose, it might have held together, but not as a hand-picked group of specialists. It is a great shame that it left me, putting down what was otherwise a good book, with a feeling of irritation. Jane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:28:35 +0000 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Greetings! I'm not sure that the linguists came out any worse than the military. Actually, the stereotyping seemed to me to be pretty evenhanded, in that almost everyone's ox got gored. Having run into a substantial number of academics who fit the stereotype, I got a chuckle out of it. They may listen to the grandmothers, but some of them don't actually hear what the grandmother is saying. Our society (contemporary US) runs extensively to stereotyping (marketing is based on it, after all), and I fight with it on a regular basis, being a woman who's spent her entire career either programming or operating computers. Anyway, I enjoyed the stereotyping. Elizabeth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:54:55 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read this book last summer so my recollections are a bit hazy. Like others I liked this book because of the unusual character Ofelia. IMO the best part is when Ofelia is alone on the planet and has to adjust, it reminded me of _The Wall_ by Marlen Haushofer (which interestingly Elizabeth Moon cites in a preface), but I think the inner thoughts and development of the woman cut off from all other people was told much better there (in _The Wall_ I mean). The resolution of the book is rather pat, the writing not up to the level I am used to in the BDG books by now. While Ofelia is something special, especially in SF, the characterization of the other (female) characters is crude and stereotypical. I remember two women scientists, one of them is presented as trying to achieve success via her sexual attractiveness, the other (who is more sympathetic) as frustrated. All the scientists are presented as rather dense and the scientific method as unsympathetic and destructive to the subjects under research (in that respect I hazily remember conversations between Ofelia and the 'better' woman scientist, unfortunately I've lent the book to somebody and cannot go back to it at the moment). I don't want to say that the scientific method is perfect and should never be criticized in fiction and out of it (on the contrary), but in RP it was done in a prejudiced and crude way. These are the impressions I had at the time I read the book, I am sorry that I cannot back them up with more concrete 'facts' from the book. All this criticism ;-). Nonetheless, I enjoyed the book and regularly recommend it to friends, if with the stated caveats. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:45:12 -0500 From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > I read this book last summer so my recollections are a bit hazy. > Like others I liked this book because of the unusual character > Ofelia. IMO the best part is when Ofelia is alone on the planet and > has to adjust, I agree. Ofelia's adjustment to living alone and slowly rediscovering her true self is by far the best part of the book. Even though the "aliens" turned out to be interesting, I think I would have liked the book a lot more if the author had left out the alien encounter and the return to the planet by humans. IMHO it would have been more daring to just tell about Ofelia's struggles, her growth as a person, her past, the dangers she faces being alone and without any help if she should become injured etc. It would have been a completely character driven story and I think Ofelia is a strong enough character to carry the whole book. In fact, I think it is Ofelia who saves this book from its flaws-- if she had been a weaker, less interesting character the book wouldn't have been nearly as good. (snip) > While Ofelia is something special, especially in SF, the > characterization of the other (female) characters is crude and > stereotypical. I love Ofelia. I am so glad to see an older female character in a science fiction novel. The usual age range for a sf/f protagonist is late teens to mid thirties. Occasionally, there is an older male but I can't recall any main character in their late 70s. Elizabeth Moon really captured the reality of being old. She showed the aches and pains and the slowing down but I think she didn't go deep enough into just how fragile a very old person really is. A simple fall, like the one described in the book when the natives first show themselves to the scientists, can be a death sentence. > I remember two women scientists, one of them is presented as trying to > achieve success via her sexual attractiveness, the other (who is more > sympathetic) as frustrated. All the scientists are presented as rather > dense and the scientific method as unsympathetic and destructive to > the subjects under research (snip). I don't want to say that the > scientific method is perfect and should never be criticized in fiction > and out of it (on the contrary), but in RP it was done in a prejudiced > and crude way. (snip) This is my main criticism of the book. Ofelia and the alien called Blue Cloak are the only sympathetic characters in the book. The scientists in particular come off as being incompetent boobs who shouldn't be allowed within spitting distance of a working hypothesis. I was especially disappointed in how Ofelia is the only "good" female character in the whole book. > All this criticism ;-). Nonetheless, I enjoyed the book and regularly > recommend it to friends, if with the stated caveats. In spite of my own criticisms, I like this book very much. > Petra Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:26:28 +0100 From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Stacey wrote >>>I love Ofelia. I am so glad to see an older female character in a science fiction novel. The usual age range for a sf/f protagonist is late teens to mid thirties. Occasionally, there is an older male but I can't recall any main character in their late 70s.<<< Preparing a reply to this quote has just lead me to an awful discovery - someone has walked off with my copy of Samuel Delany's 'Tales of Neveryon', so I'm afraid I'm going to have to work from memory. 'The tale of Old Venn' has as its major character an old woman, who is both dynamic and intelligent. And who, in recounting escapades from her life manages to overturn every cliché about intelligent women you ever come across in sci-fi - or any other form of literature. Just when you think you have her pigeon-holed the next page brings a different aspect to her - but IMHO Delany has written the best female characters to be found in sci-fi. Jane (scratching her head while wondering who she lent the book to) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:30:45 -0700 From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Actually, that book features three of the best female characters in all of fsf (Venn, Norema, and Raven) and Delany's overall record with fictional women is pretty good. Jane Fletcher wrote: > Preparing a reply to this quote has just lead me to an awful discovery - > someone has walked off with my copy of Samuel Delany's 'Tales of Neveryon', > so I'm afraid I'm going to have to work from memory. > > 'The tale of Old Venn' has as its major character an old woman, who is both > dynamic and intelligent. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:30:19 -0500 From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hm. I love Venn and I like Norema, but Raven is--to me at least--sort of a cardboard character. She's nowhere near as well-realized as Gorgik, and the major reason I remember her at all is because of the wonderful and hilarious creation myth she tells. Sheryl -----Original Message----- From: Dave Samuelson To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Friday, April 14, 2000 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population >Actually, that book features three of the best female characters in all of fsf >(Venn, Norema, and Raven) and Delany's overall record with fictional women is >pretty good. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:51:49 -0700 From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I concede the point and Raven is nowhere near the sword and sorcery character I think she was based on: Joanna Russ' Alyx. Jocelyn & Sheryl wrote: > Hm. I love Venn and I like Norema, but Raven is--to me at least--sort of a > cardboard character. She's nowhere near as well-realized as Gorgik, and the > major reason I remember her at all is because of the wonderful and hilarious > creation myth she tells. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:17:59 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Remnant To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I LOVED this book! I know that a lot of you prefer Octavia Butler, and the traffic on her books is a lot heavier, but i was very happy to read something that wasn't so depressing. Ofelia is a wonderful character. I started both this month's book and the one for last month simultaneously. Since they both start out with old women who are trying to decide whether or not to leave a planet, at first I got the two characters mixed up. About the time I figured out who was who, I was much more interested in Remnant Population than last month's book. People have commented a lot on their disappointment that the other female characters are so badly drawn. Well, did you really like any of the male characters? Except for the very brief glimpse of the dynamics on the ship, most of the characterization was drawn through Ofelia's eyes. And face it, folks. She's a crotchety old lady. So crotchety that she prefers her own company to that of anybody else. So crotchety that she goes to great pains to abandon/be abandoned by the rest of her society when they leave the planet. So, just which of the male characters was drawn as intelligent and sympathetic? Her son? ANY of the scientist or military crew? Even the memories of both her husbands are colored with great relief that such a period in her life is finally over. So, yes, the other females are drawn less than sympathetically. But so are the men. And to be fair, I don't think this is a flaw in the book. I think that from Ofelia's eyes, nearly everybody would come up wanting. (+)-(+) your bifocaled, bookish friend, | \____/ Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:15:59 -0500 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Remnant To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU As I read your e-mail, Sharon, I realized who Ofelia reminds me of ... both of my grandmothers, but particularly my mother's mother. After she retired (at age 70?), she took a job as an undercover store detective in Des Moines, Iowa. Was still working there until the week she died -- age 84. Florence is the one I see and hear when I imagine Ofelia. I chuckled my way through Remnant Population, and I enjoyed seeing the world through Ofelia's eyes. I find myself being even more uncharitable in my own mind, sometimes, and I believe that I also would have chosen to remain when the others left. I must admit, but I've yet to make it past the first couple chapters of any of Octavia Butler's books. They lack, for one thing, the wonderful sense of humor or perspective or feeling of reality (or whatever it is) that's so thoroughly dished up in Elizabeth Moon's science fiction. Her Herris Serano (sp?) series has an abundance of older ladies who could serve as wondrous role models! Best regards, Elizabeth On 15 Apr 00, at 22:17, Sharon Anderson wrote: > I LOVED this book! > > I know that a lot of you prefer Octavia Butler, and the traffic on her > books is a lot heavier, but i was very happy to read something that wasn't > so depressing. -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:56:59 -0700 From: Grete Subject: [*FSF-L*] Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I just finished Remnant Population, and have been browsing the posts made thus far. Although I agree that Ofelia is a likable character, I left this story feeling dissatisfied. The one-dimensionality of virtually every other character in the book was a major factor, but not quite in the way that has been observed by others. Let's see if I can get to the meat of what bothered me so much about the resolution of RP.... We start off with Ofelia's son, the stereotypical machista male, and his wife, the stereotypical shrew. There is not enough interaction between Ofelia and her other villagemates to get much of a feel for them, so I will leave them out of the mix. Then we have the "indigenes", whom she views largely as demanding, inconsiderate children until Blue Cloak arrives. Finally, we meet the team of scientists - Team leader, Dr. Scientific-Inquiry-is-an-Extension-of-my-Phallus (Donna Haraway's nightmare!), Sergeant Conquest and His Thick-Necked Goons, and the women: Drs. My-Ass-is-my-Passport and the marginally sympathetic Everyone-Around-Me-Is-A-Doofus-But-It-Would-All-Be-OK-If- Only-The-Anthropologist-Loved-Me-And-We-Could-Make-A-Baby. As I progressed through the book, I recognized that Ofelia saw virtually everyone around her as some archetype of human frailty, but I did not mind so much. I didn't mind because I was certain that the author was setting Ofelia up to realize that although her remaining behind was the final act of rebellion against a society that refused to see her as a fully realized human rather than a body filling the roles prescribed to women in her culture, she herself was unable to escape the same patterns of categorization that had been inflicted upon her since birth. I fully expected Ofelia's growth to stem from the recognition of her own hypocrisy, and the damage that her preconceived notions could do to herself, her peers, and the newly discovered indigenes. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered during the uninspired wrap-up of events that the take-home message was, in fact, that Ofelia was right. I'm sure that the author succeeded in what she intended to say - I was simply surprised at what a limited view she took of humanity and its potential. After such a long buildup to what I considered the most important aspect of the story, Ofelia's role as an intermediary between the familiar and the foreign, I just couldn't get over the abundance of things unsaid. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:03:44 -0500 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU This may be a critical point that you've hit, here! I do believe that Ofelia was right. Also, I believe that the viability of our current societies/social structure is extremely limited. While Ofelia viewed the people around her (and herself) in terms of stereotypes (and voices of people from her past who gradually ceased to outshout her own inner voice), her stereotypes were, I believe, fairly accurate -- or at least utilitarian and self-empowering. Best regads, Elizabeth On 16 Apr 00, at 7:56, Grete wrote: > You can imagine my surprise when I discovered during > the uninspired wrap-up of events that the take-home > message was, in fact, that Ofelia was right. I'm sure > that the author succeeded in what she intended to say > - I was simply surprised at what a limited view she > took of humanity and its potential. After such a long > buildup to what I considered the most important aspect > of the story, Ofelia's role as an intermediary between > the familiar and the foreign, I just couldn't get over > the abundance of things unsaid. -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:33:04 -0700 From: Margaret McBride Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG-Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we still caught up in our past--SF as adventure? Are editors and authors still thinking of the audience as the younger more predominantly male as was once thought (even though that is being questioned not even for the pulp mags)? At the 20th anniversary of WISCON (feminist SF con), Lois Bujold said she had been turned down by a publisher of big print books with the line that older people didn't read SF. Someone in the audience asked for a show of hands of those who wore bifocals and it looked to me that close to 1/2 of a fairly big room had their hands up. What are other books that use older people (esp. women) convincingly? 2) What difference do you think having an older woman made to the traditional tropes of first contact stories? I'm thinking of LeGuin's essay back in the 70s when she suggested that the best envoy of the human race to go with a ship of aliens was a post-menopausal woman. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:30:28 -0500 From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG-Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I am a big fan of Tara K. Harper and Anne McCaffrey. While the early Pern books (9th pass series) has young people, near the end they are still major characters, if not the main characters. One of the most beloved characters of all the Pern books, Master Robinton, was seen as 'old' throughout much of the series, until his own book was published not 2 years ago. In Tara K. Harper's Wolfwalker series, a very big side character, who plays a prominent role in all three of the first three original books, is 'old'. Gamon is his name. Look for him if you read the series. Now i'm sure side characters wasn't quite what you were looking for. I'm sure that's not all you'll be able to find out there. But it is a natural role, one of many that older people take up. I hope you are successful in your search. I can't wait to learn what else is out there to answer your question. Roxanne http://www.its.ilstu.edu/rmkorpa > I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally > aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been > mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we > still caught up in our past--SF as adventure? Are editors and authors > still thinking of the audience as the younger more predominantly male as > was once thought (even though that is being questioned not even for the > pulp mags)? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:23:01 -0400 From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Greetings! Petra writes: "IMO the best part is when Ofelia is alone on the planet and has to adjust, it reminded me of _The Wall_ by Marlen Haushofer (which interestingly Elizabeth Moon cites in a preface), but I think the inner thoughts and development of the woman cut off from all other people was told much better there (in _The Wall_ I mean)." That was the part of the book that I most enjoyed as well. Stories about women adapting to challenging circumstances, surviving and thriving, are tremendously inspiring. Like Hegland's _Into the Forest_, Harpman's _I Who Have Never Known Men_, later chapters of Gearhart's _Wanderground_, though of course Ofelia is completely alone. I'm not familiar with the Haushofer novel but having read the description of it on-line I shall have to track it down (through my favourite independent bookseller of course). Stacey writes: "I agree. Ofelia's adjustment to living alone and slowly rediscovering her true self is by far the best part of the book. Even though the "aliens" turned out to be interesting, I think I would have liked the book a lot more if the author had left out the alien encounter and the return to the planet by humans." While I enjoyed the chronicle of Ofelia's adjustment, I also found the aliens fascinating and appreciated Moon's brief attempt to get inside their heads to reveal their intelligence and impressions of Ofelia, their wondering whether she is actually communicating with them or simply making noises, debating over whether she has something to teach them, exactly what Ofelia herself is wondering about them. I was going to say that I wish the story hadn't included the humans returning to the planet but then again all the characters would have wished that too even though Ofelia knew it was inevitable once they discovered that a human presence remained with the creatures in the Company's abandoned settlement. So perhaps this section was intentionally discomfiting. I haven't read anything else of Moon's to know whether she would have been painting in broad strokes to wrap up a runaway plot or whether she was reminding the reader that this is Ofelia's story, Ofelia's annoyance, Ofelia's disappointment, Ofelia's dismissal. As Sharon writes, "I think that from Ofelia's eyes, nearly everybody would come up wanting", and Liz, in saying that she feels she's becoming more like Ofelia, "I'm less inclined to think that I've missed something, and more inclined to think "they" have missed the essentials." Jane recommends Delany's 'The tale of Old Venn' which "has as its major character an old woman, who is both dynamic and intelligent." I'll have to make a point of finding this one as well. In trying to come up with older women in the specfic I've read, I can only think of Maya in _The Fifth Sacred Thing_, the older Morgaine in Bradley's _Mists of Avalon_, the elder in Yolen's _Sister Light, Sister Dark_, and the woman in the cage in _Black Wine_. Moon's narrative is refreshing in affording Ofelia centre stage but these other characters are pivotal characters even if they're not in every scene. Marcie, game for _Bending the Landscape_ for May, or whatever else is agreed upon for that matter ;) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:13:18 +0100 From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Margaret McBride wrote: >I am interested in the topic of older people in SF--non-enhanced normally >aging people. I appreciate the references to some examples that have been >mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF--are we >still caught up in our past SF as adventure? Just some vague thoughts the subject: There are problems with older people as the central character in fiction generally; but I don't think it is for ageist reasons - if anything it is exactly the opposite. In a story, ideally, the hero/heroine develops during the course of the book, and finishes as a more mature personality than the one who started. Of course, older people in real life still have internal problems to resolve, but if a fictional character is seen to be a slow developer it will be hard to stop the reader losing their respect for the character, and usually a writer wants the central character to be admired and/or liked by the reader. Therefore, if you have an older protagonist you have to explain how they reached mature years without overcoming the internal conflicts long before. In Remnant Population, Moon has to go to some length to explain the repressive family structure that held Ofelia back. This is why older characters are usually restricted to the role of 'wise councilor to the developing hero'. It is significant that the main genre I can think of where the main character does not develop during the course of the book is the murder-mystery. In this an author can keep a detective fundamentally unchanged through dozens of sequels. And this is where you find Agatha Christie's Miss Marple - probably the most successful older female lead in all fiction. Jane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:49:19 EDT From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: > There are problems with older people as the central character in fiction > generally; but I don't think it is for ageist reasons - if anything it is > exactly the opposite. In a story, ideally, the hero/heroine develops during > the course of the book, and finishes as a more mature personality than the > one who started. But if a good writer presents a well-developed and communicative character, the wonderful flavors and results of internal brewing over time can come through with a minimum of step-by-step development-- Stephen Maturin in Patrick O'Brian's novels comes to mind. And development and change continues throughout life. Sylvia Townsend Warner's Lolly Willows didn't really bloom until middle age, when she left her stuffy brother's house and moved into the wilds. And Charnas in Dorothea Dreams has an older woman and man as main characters, and (as I remember it) with some tension in using what they've learned vs. what they're learning. The "journey" through early experience does seem to be a (by now, grindingly trite) trope in sf/f -- all those damned 17-year-olds learning social skills in Cherryh novels -- I don't know if this is due more to marketing strategies or lack of imagination. I think it might be both: but defying these limitations as recurring older main characters in commercially successful sf/f are Terry Pratchett's witches. And Death. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:48:41 -0400 From: Frances Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU One of the pleasures of Sheri Tepper is the old women. Frances ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:10:53 EDT From: Kathleen Friello Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: << I appreciate the references to some examples that have been mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF-- are we still caught up in our past SF as adventure? >> [In addition to my other mess.] Even the elderly can still adventure (in their final exploits, the Musketeers were in their sixties; and Don Quixote was no spring chicken). But these are books from another time and, although fantastic, not sf. Is it a general ick factor shared by this audience and the authors? Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most especially for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. [sociocultural & aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a field traditionally driven by problem-solving and wish fulfillment we'd find more exploration here. Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, Viagra, for chrissakes (reality seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? Don't we want to think about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the "limitations" and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're still seeing ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to middle-aged heros? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:41:38 -0500 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read a nice (genre classification: paranormal mystery) book with older characters that I thought were realistically portrayed. It's an e- book by Marilyn Dalla Valle called Murder in Mystic (available at http://www.zeus-publications.com -- I think that's them). I believe that it almost always takes an older author to write realistically from that perspective. Perhaps, in a youth-oriented culture, older people are indulging in more denial than previously. Elizabeth On 20 Apr 00, at 12:10, Kathleen Friello wrote: > . . . > Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most > especially for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. > [sociocultural & aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a > field traditionally driven by problem-solving and wish fulfillment > we'd find more exploration here. Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples > and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, Viagra, for chrissakes (reality > seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? Don't we want to think > about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the "limitations" > and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're still seeing > ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to > middle-aged heros? -- E. W. Bennefeld Freelance Writer, Editor, and Academic Style Editor Since 1984 d.b.a. The Written Word QuiltedPoetry@att.net http://TheWrittenWord.home.att.net http://www.PatchworkProse.com "The antithesis of altruism is nihilism." -- E. Wicker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:23:21 -0400 From: feldsipe Organization: or Lack Thereof Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I think the 'adventures of the elderly' are often perceived/presented as 'cuter' or more poignant than younger folk who can breeze through dragon slaying or whatever without breaking a hip. It's tough to be a hero when you're all rickety and cranky. ;> Hoping to see a LOT of folks at Balticon this weekend! Suze/Severna Kathleen Friello wrote: > In a message dated 4/19/00 2:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: > > << I appreciate the references to some examples that have been > mentioned. Why do you think older people are infrequent in SF-- > are we still caught up in our past SF as adventure? >> > > [In addition to my other mess.] > > Even the elderly can still adventure (in their final exploits, the Musketeers > were in their sixties; and Don Quixote was no spring chicken). But these are > books from another time and, although fantastic, not sf. > > Is it a general ick factor shared by this audience and the authors? > > Action and sex, sex especially, for older characters and most most especially > for older women seem to be tough to make appealing. [sociocultural & > aesthetic conditioning?] But you'd think that in a field traditionally driven > by problem-solving and wish fulfillment we'd find more exploration here. > Where are the cyberspace Miss Marples and Mae Wests, the Waldo troopers, > Viagra, for chrissakes (reality seems to have jumped the gun on sf there)? > Don't we want to think about that part of our lives? Or has our idea of the > "limitations" and even the definition of old age changed, too, so we're > still seeing ourselves/the writers are still seeing themselves in youngish to > middle-aged heros? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:22:25 EDT From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 4/20/0 1:28:28 PM, feldsipe@EROLS.COM writes: << I think the 'adventures of the elderly' are often perceived/presented as 'cuter' or more poignant than younger folk who can breeze through dragon slaying or whatever without breaking a hip. >> Oh, pooh! The attitude of the writer would come to bear here, yes? Suzette Haden Elgin argued persuasively, nay passionately, at WisCon in 1999 for more elders in sff. Where are the wise women, she asked? And she has a good point. I don't agree with whomever said it on this list (sorry, can't find the email) that younger people "grow" and older people are "already there," or words to that effect. The interesting characters are always growing -- responding to circumstances and adapting. Elgin further made the point that she'd like to see some elders with their wrinkles described lovingly. Well, good old Honor Harrington is, in fact, old by normal standards, but then she's been on life-extension stuff and LOOKS young. But that's a cop-out. We hope that sff digs under the surface of mere appearance. Point is, older people figure things out differently, bring some wisdom (and one hopes, a dash of folly) to bear. That IS missing from sff in large measure. And these days, even in the real world, the person at the gym sitting next to you could be your grandmother. Sff is behind the times. Elgin said her piece last year -- sitting on a panel with Suzy Charnas and others -- saying older people ought to act their age, and sff writers ought to give older characters something to do. She looked sensational -- with her snowy hair, eyes alternately sparkling and glittering, a smile that lit up the room -- a beautiful woman who was wise and over sixty and gorgeous and articulate. I would trust her with a sword any day and wouldn't worry a bit about her hips. best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:19:37 -0700 From: Cynthia Gonsalves Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Older people in SF To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 08:22 AM 4/22/2000 -0400, Phoebe wrote: >Suzette Haden Elgin argued persuasively, nay passionately, at WisCon in 1999 >for more elders in sff. Where are the wise women, she asked? And she has a >good point. Ah, you were there too! That was a fabulous talk. We get lots of images of the Maiden and the Mother and even the Warrior, but the Crones seem to be hiding. >Elgin further made the point that she'd like to see some elders with their >wrinkles described lovingly. Well, good old Honor Harrington is, in fact, >old by normal standards, but then she's been on life-extension stuff and >LOOKS young. But that's a cop-out. We hope that sff digs under the surface >of mere appearance. Weber stretches my tolerance to the elastic breaking point when he makes Honor look like a teenager/twentysomething and emphasizes it many times in book after book after book (enough already!). It might be some wish-fulfillment on his part, but frankly, I would have been delighted to see her kick butt looking a bit older (like maybe thirty or fortysomething, but then I'm hitting 40 in August and am a bit biased). Besides the exaggerated youthfulness, I don't think we've truly gotten a good exploration of the impact of prolong in the HH series to date. Of course, that isn't the primary goal of those books, but still, a bit of thought stretching might go nicely with all those booms. >Point is, older people figure things out differently, bring some wisdom (and >one hopes, a dash of folly) to bear. That IS missing from sff in large >measure. And these days, even in the real world, the person at the gym >sitting next to you could be your grandmother. Sff is behind the times. As are many of the other media! >Elgin said her piece last year -- sitting on a panel with Suzy Charnas and >others -- saying older people ought to act their age, and sff writers ought >to give older characters something to do. She looked sensational -- with her >snowy hair, eyes alternately sparkling and glittering, a smile that lit up >the room -- a beautiful woman who was wise and over sixty and gorgeous and >articulate. I would trust her with a sword any day and wouldn't worry a bit >about her hips. I only hope that I can age as well as she has. Check with me in twenty-five years (goddess willing) and see if I pull it off. Cynthia -- "I had to be a bitch, they wouldn't let me be a Jesuit." -Joan Gant in Matt Ruff's Sewer, Gas, and Electric Sharks Bite!!! http://members.home.net/cynthia1960/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:29:05 -0800 From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Remnant Population To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I just finished _Remnant Population_ last week. Thank you to whoever nominated this book. I really enjoyed it. Like a lot of SF, the writing was a bit flat, and as others have pointed out, many of the characters are two dimensional. I've reconciled that by looking at the language and stereotypical characterization as part of the allegorical package. That said, I have to agree with everyone, Ofelia was terrific. I even had dreams about her. I love it when that happens with a book. I loved her clothes and necklaces-- the way she must have looked walking toward the spaceship when if first landed! I love that image. I also liked how she loved food and cooking and how important manners were to her-- common human decency, which seemed so little to ask, but was so lacking. (hey, I can relate.) I also thought the POV shifts between the indigenes and Ofelia's POV were very strange (good-strange) and effective. I thought that the stereotypical academics were drawn unkindly in order to heighten Moon's point-- that even among the "enlightened" an elderly woman is often seen as just a "grandma" and not really who she is at all. I also thought this background of multinational colonization-- humans as commodities (being shipped in cryo like natural resources would be, etc.) was effective, and given this context the unenlightened scientists make sense. Moon seems to be harkening back to the beginnings of anthropological science-- which often served to expedite colonial endeavors. Thanks again, I loved the book. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:57:15 +0000 From: Angela Barclay Subject: [*FSF-L*] The Fiction of Aging To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I was in the stacks rounding up yet another half dozen books to use for my Thesis and discovered alongside Marleen Barr's _Feminist Fabulation: Space/Postmodern Fiction_ and Anne Cranny-Francis' _Feminist Fiction_ Barbara Frey Waxman's _From the Hearth to the Open Road: A Feminist Study of Aging in Contemporary Literature_. (1990/Greenwood Press/New York) Here are some snippets which, as a result of the recent discussion of the need for more aging characters in SF, I thought some group members might be interested in. The concept of "Reifungsromane" was certainly new to me! Waxman asserts that American, Canadian, and British culture's antipathy toward the aging woman's body and persona, as well as their assignment to the lower echelon of the second sex, must be changed. We need to break down Western culture's binary opposition between youth and age, and create a new space where age is no longer an element of identity: an ageless utopia (p.2). She outlines what she refers to as a recent proliferation of texts about aging and calls this genre, in a feminist literary critic's act of naming, the Reifungsroman, or novel of ripening, "opposing its central tenet to the usual notion of deterioration in old age" (p. 2). This she contrasts with the Bildungsroman, its predecessor, which was widely read by a more youthful society. "Feminist theory can examine older women's dual oppressions in order to eliminate them and move society toward a utopian future without the stigma of old age (8) . . ." It can, for example, seek to reject the dichotomization and reconceptualize youth and age as an undemarcated continuum, which could change the traditional roles assigned elders in our society. Waxman conducted a survey of journalistic essays on aging from the turn of the century to the present in the U.S., Britain and Canada and shows how these nations have moved increasingly toward associating energy, productivity, and integrity with senescence (11)." She also applies her concept of Reifungsromane to the work of Doris Lessing, Alice Adams, Elizabeth Taylor, Barbara Pym, May Sarton and Margaret Laurence. Waxman reports that most Reisfungsromane are written by women, perhaps because older women have been greater victims of ageism in a sexist and youth-oriented culture (12). The female fictions of aging, notes Waxman, are frequently confessional in tone and structure. They are also usually char. by great mobility, recursiveness, or rambling in narrative structure, and passion as well as candor in the disclosures of the protagonists. Reifungsromane include themes of physical and psychic pain; loneliness; alienation from family and youthful society; self- doubt; feelings of uselessness; and grief over the loss of friends, mental acuity, and physical energy. At the same time there is an opening up of life for many of these aging heroines as they literally take to the open road in search of themselves and new roles in life (16). Whether or not they are literally traveling, protagonists usually make an internal journey to their past through dreams and frequent flashbacks, an essential feature of the Reifungsroman narrative structure (17). Usually they become revitalized, newly self-knowledgeable, self-confident, and independent before they move forward. If the protagonist of the R. dies at the end of the story, it is commonly after she has grown significantly. " . . . intimate narrations, realistic characterizations, strongly evocative descriptions of the mental and physical baggage carried by the old, and interior views of their treatment by younger characters all blur the boundaries between young and old, reality and fantasy, belonging and Otherness, integrity and fragmentation, rationality and senility (17)." These works ask that readers immerse themselves in the visceral proses of the genre, to assume the body and mind of an older human being and vicariously experience hostility, dependency and fear of dying. Ultimately the fiction of aging encourages positive attitudinal changes in society, disburdens readers of many of the negative expectations about old age. So, it sounds like more feminist sci fi needs to take on characteristics of the Reifungsroman as did Elizabeth Moon's _Remnant Population_ and Molly Gloss's _The Dazzle of Day_. A