Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:53:10 +0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU The BDG book of this month is _Perdido Street Station_ by China Miéville. This is the kick-off. This shouldn't put a stop to the discussion on _The Saga of the Renunciates_, continue please. For me _Perdido_ was a long, affecting and rewarding read. I cannot really say that I enjoyed it, for that there were too many cruel deaths and betrayals. I needed my whole vacation, 3 weeks, to read the book and if I hadn't been responsible for the kick-off, perhaps I wouldn't have finished the book. The book is in so many things the opposite of what we are used to: Unlike in many other books there were no last minute rescue so that the "heroes" were spared to have to do the dirty. In the end they do the job, they are guilty and damaged afterwards and they know they are guilty. That was one of the things that impressed me the most. The city, New Crobuzon, is central to the book. It is big, dirty, ugly, beautiful, dangerous, corrupt. It offers so many facets, so many different communities and people. It is so alive. This is no pastoral with a well-ordered community or a well-ordered kingdom with some minor slums. I don't know whether it has created a new fantasy subgenre, but at least it redirected fantasy away from the medieval, sword and sorcery focus (in some interviews Miéville has said he wanted to write an anti-Tolkien fantasy). Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book? What did you think of it as a whole? What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, Derkhan? What did you think of that Isaac was not interested in Yaz' crime in the beginning but saw it in the end as sufficient reason NOT to finish the crisis energy machine for Yaz? In some reviews it's said that the end is rushed. Perhaps because it took me such a long time to read I didn't see it that way. What do you think of the plot and the end? Until nearly the end I wondered why the book was short-listed for the 2000 Tiptree. Of course, it's great, but what is the gender-bending in it? The comments of the Tiptree jury are: "An amazing read, a big epic wonder of a novel that constructs an urban fantasy world that is both Dickensian and futuristic. Its main themes are about inter-species relationships and what it is to be human, but there is a strong gender sub-theme that weaves its way through the city and the lives of its main characters." ??? I suppose they meant the "choice-theft in the second degree, with utter disrespect". What did you think of that part? Do you see other gender-bending aspects? How would you interpret the Tiptree comments? So much for a start. I hope for a lively discussion. Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de www.feministische-sf.de ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:04:55 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Petra Mayerhofer wrote on 1/6/03 1:53 PM: > I needed my whole vacation, 3 weeks, to read the book and if I > hadn't been responsible for the kick-off, perhaps I wouldn't have finished > the book. You read it in three weeks? I'm impressed. I started in November and still haven't finished. I'm hoping this discussion will motivate me. > The city, New Crobuzon, is central to the book. It is big, dirty, ugly, > beautiful, dangerous, corrupt. It offers so many facets, so many different > communities and people. It is so alive. This is no pastoral with a > well-ordered community or a well-ordered kingdom with some minor slums. Yes, I really like the city. It is very real and, as you say, alive. The setting isn't a relaxing one and, every time I think I've got it figured out, some new aspect of the city is presented which throws out my preconceptions. Honestly, Petra, you really hit the nail on the head when you use the term "alive". New Crobuzon seems to me a living, breathing, changing entity in and of itself. > Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book? I am having a lot of trouble finishing it, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps this discussion will flesh out all my mixed feelings. > What did you think of it as a whole? I can't comment on the whole, since I haven't finished yet, but so far I am very impressed with both the setting and the prose. Mieville is indeed a talented writer. On the other hand, I do sometimes have trouble with his in-your-face realism. It is like poetry defaced, artwork graffitied. Crass descriptions of bodily functions that wouldn't necessarily be offensive in another context seem all the grittier when surrounded by such beautiful words. Maybe I'm just a prude, but it really throws me off when Mieville does this. Maybe it is supposed to. What do you think? I'm looking forward to this discussion. Perdido Street Station is not a pleasant book, but I think it is going to be an important one. It is certainly one of the most original works I've come across lately. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:11:08 -0800 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido: feminist? To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 01:53 PM 1/6/2003 , Petra wrote: >Until nearly the end I wondered why the book was short-listed for the 2000 >Tiptree. Of course, it's great, but what is the gender-bending in it? The >comments of the Tiptree jury are: > >"An amazing read, a big epic wonder of a novel that constructs an urban >fantasy world that is both Dickensian and futuristic. Its main themes are >about inter-species relationships and what it is to be human, but there is a >strong gender sub-theme that weaves its way through the city and the lives >of its main characters." > >??? I suppose they meant the "choice-theft in the second degree, with utter >disrespect". What did you think of that part? Do you see other >gender-bending aspects? How would you interpret the Tiptree comments? Petra - I wondered too about the "gender sub-theme", and wondered as usual if I would call this book "feminist". The most obvious Tiptree interest to me would be the inter-species relationship. I thought it was well done, but I wondered that Isaac was the only one experiencing any shame or disgust. I don't remember Lin having any problems with him at all. Maybe I just missed those parts. I suppose that "choice theft" is a gender sub-theme, though I don't see it as having to do with gender so much in the story, and I don't see that woven through the city and the lives of the main characters. I guess Lin's choices were stolen, but Isaac's weren't -- he chose to keep the caterpillar after all. I'll have to think about this some more. I don't know what other gender sub-theme they were talking about and I'd love to hear someone else's ideas. As to whether or not PSS was feminist... my assessment is "mostly." Yes, there were strong female characters: Lin and Derkhan, the pipe-smoking security chief, the frog-lady tomb raider, the khepri drug lord. But all of them were secondary. It's as if Mieville made all the primary characters male, then made the next in line female. Lin was the most developed character, but she wasn't around for much and she suffered the most - that sets my anti-feminist radar off. However, the female characters were fairly well realized even if they didn't get much attention. And the overall sensibilities of the story were fairly progressive. I think I read that Mieville is a socialist, and that set of values shows through clearly. What do you think? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 22:11:42 -0800 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Thank you so much Petra for nominating this. I would never have read it otherwise, and I'm so glad I got the chance. The writing was so lush and organic, the aliens so inventive, it was just a sensual pleasure to read. I don't like horror but this was worth it. At 01:53 PM 1/6/2003, you wrote: >Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book? I had a little trouble getting past the first section, but the quality of the writing kept me going. I had to get used to the style. Then I got hooked on the sheer volume of invention and it was only a week before I was done. >What did you think of it as a whole? I thought it was magnificent, as a whole. Individual parts got frustrating or were disappointing, but overall I loved it. I loved the descriptions of the city and the inhabitants. From the opening part where Lin ordered her groceries from the street vendor I was enthralled. I loved Teafortwo, the visit with the ambassador from hell, the visit to the fair, the spider's web and rhymes, the cactus dome. I loved the organic descriptions of inorganic things, the casual vignettes of street life. As Petra said, the city was alive. I don't ever want to go there, but I loved reading about it. >What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, Derkhan? I was put off by the way Yaz' story was told, I never felt like I could identify with him. He was holding us at a distance the whole way through, until the very end, so when he made his final decision I didn't really care. I guess I thought he was better off trying to find a way to accept himself as he was rather than trying to be something he wasn't. And in the end, he was still trying to be something he wasn't. Isaac was interesting, and seemed fairly believable. But I didn't really identify with him either. I liked his weaknesses. I read in a review that the characters in PSS don't grow, but he did grow in that he was able to accept his love for Lin. Lin was my favorite. She was the most complex and interesting character in the book and it was a real shame that she had so peripheral a role. It's as though she was initially only there to add dimension to Isaac and his growth, but then Mieville got carried away with her. The part about her fundamentalist upbringing, and the idea of khepris mating with beetles and loving other khepri women was fascinating and seemed original to me. Her ambivalence about her own culture, and her repeated return to assimilation gave her depth that no other characters showed. Why invest so much in someone and throw them away like that? Derkhan never really got fleshed out enough. Hard to imagine why not, there was certainly enough time in this huge book. She seemed more like a device to move the plot or other characters along than a real person herself. We saw what she did, and what she felt, but not why she did or felt it. >What did you think of that Isaac was not interested in Yaz' crime in the >beginning but saw it in the end as sufficient reason NOT to finish the >crisis energy machine for Yaz? In one sense, I guess it was another way that Isaac grew; he wasn't very particular about morality before then, but perhaps based on what he went through during the story, he realized he had to stand for something. I do think he projected his own anger about what happened to Lin, though. >In some reviews it's said that the end is rushed. Perhaps because it took me >such a long time to read I didn't see it that way. What do you think of the >plot and the end? I don't think the end was rushed. I think that overall the plot was just not that interesting. This book was about style, invention, and the city itself. The plot and even the main characters were mostly incidental. I didn't like the way characters always seemed to wait just a bit too long to do something, with dire results. Even the betrayal by Isaac's roommate didn't bother me, I guess I didn't care that much. I just wanted to read the description of what happened next. Some people have complained that the spider was just a convenient plot device, but I didn't think so. I thought the last-minute rescue by half-a-prayer was a cop out. And I didn't really care about what happened to Yag by the end. Actually, in some ways I was rooting for the moths. They were so beautiful and powerful and wild. They seemed sleek and flawless compared to the city and its inhabitants. I was sorry that they were all killed. I'm sure I'll have more comments later! Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:53:59 +0000 From: Sue Chant Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Thanks, Petra, for nominating this book. It's excellent. If you enjoyed this one, you'll like _The Scar_, for my money the most interesting SF of 2002. It's a while since I've read _Perdido_ , but remember being completely gripped by it and running through it at speed. Petra's summation of the city as central is absolutely spot-on. > I don't know whether it has created a new fantasy subgenre, Mieville's work has been described as reminiscent of _Ghormengast_ and sometimes it does have gothic dream-like qualities, but the descriptions of the more sordid and seedy sides of life seem to bring it back into the real world. In fact, one thing that irritated me was that every couple of pages he seemed to stand back and tell me that something was sordid or corrupt when it would have been more effective to actually show it. > What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, Derkhan? Derkhan was the "spunky girl sidekick" – she got to fire a few guns and run around a lot; Lin started out as quite interesting – strong, self- confident, focussed on her work – but then disappeared for large chunks of the book and ended up as damaged damsel in distress; I liked the way Isaac too was focussed on his work, sometimes to the exclusion of all else, but then could slip into quite romantic daydreams about Lin or go out drinking with friends and gossip or discuss politics. He seemed the most rounded character, though he did remind me a bit of Casaubon in Mary Gentle’s White Crow books. Yaz was by far the most interesting and disturbing character. Suffering a terrible punishment for a terrible crime, unable to interact normally with anyone, supressing his internal conflict between guilt for the crime and the justified (in his eyes) punishment, and his desperate need to fly again, thus negating that punishment. I don't think Isaac saw the crime as > sufficient reason NOT to finish the crisis energy machine for Yaz? Isaac was weary and fearful, and had been through tremendous danger. Under the pressure of his need to escape with Lin he used the knowledge of the crime as a rationalisation for betraying Yaz's trust. > there is a strong gender sub-theme that weaves its way through the city and > the lives of its main characters. I don't see it. Yaz's crime of > "choice-theft in the second degree, with utter disrespect" is an interesting revelation about rape, but we don't see that until late in the book. There's nothing particularly gender-bending earlier on. Enough for now. Cheers SC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:15:40 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > > I needed my whole vacation, 3 weeks, to read the book and if I > > hadn't been responsible for the kick-off, perhaps I wouldn't have > > finished the book. > > You read it in three weeks? I'm impressed. I started in November and > still haven't finished. I'm hoping this discussion will motivate me. I started Perdido right before Christmas and I have about 100 pages left, so I guess I'm on par with Petra. I'm not having a hard time motivating myself to read it though. I think it's pretty exciting and very original so that my interest has been held throughout. > On the other hand, I do sometimes have trouble with his in-your-face > realism. It is like poetry defaced, artwork graffitied. Crass > descriptions of bodily functions that wouldn't necessarily be > offensive in another context seem all the grittier when surrounded by > such beautiful words. Maybe I'm just a prude, but it really throws me > off when Mieville does this. Maybe it is supposed to. What do you > think? Well said. I've been trying to figure out what it is about his writing that rubs me the wrong way. And I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe it's just personal taste but I would prefer one or the other - pretty language or gritty language. The grittyness makes the pretty language and the big words seem affected. And as for vocabulary, I often felt like he would use some obscure word to make sure we know how vast his vocabulary is. And some words, which I for one haven't come across before or very often, seemed to have Most Favored Word status. This said based on the number of repetitions. Beyond that I think he is a very fine writer. The story is well-crafted. But I will reserve further judgement until I've actually finished it! > I'm looking forward to this discussion. Perdido Street Station is not > a pleasant book, but I think it is going to be an important one. It > is certainly one of the most original works I've come across lately. It is definitely very original and for that reason alone worthwhile. I will get back to some of Petra's other questions about gender and what-not when I've finished. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:44:05 -0800 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] PERDIDO STREET STATION and SPEED OF DARK To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU It's been at least a year since I read PSS -- which means I feel like it's been just about enough time for me to feel ready to tackle another China Mieville novel. I don't remember how long it took me to read it -- seems like it was several weeks? -- but I do remember becoming immersed in New Crobuzon and its inhabitants to the extent they were in my dreams. Especially the "moths" and the "Spider." My only difficulties with PSS were the last 1/3 of the book or so seemed to be chase scene after chase scene, which was a little bit wearying after a while, and I wasn't sure Mieville played fair with the readers in his treatment of Lin, when we lose her POV. Speaking of books that work their way into my dreams, just finished Elizabeth Moon's affecting SPEED OF DARK. I admire books where one can not only learn about the protagonist's life, but also be moved to examine one's own life a little differently because of the experiences of the protagonist. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:15:29 +0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] WG: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I think Pamela intended to send this to the whole list. Petra -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: momtotsan@hotmail.com [mailto:momtotsan@hotmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Januar 2003 00:11 An: p.mayerhofer@web.de Betreff: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station Hi all, /snip/Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book?/snip/ Actually, I had problems beginning the book. About the time I reached the slug thing in its tub of filthy, slimy water and the author comments that it was as though the slug thing was trying to be more obnoxious and disgusting than anything ever yet seen that I decided I really didn't want to read this book. It seemed as though the author was commenting on the book itself as much as on the character. Why did the author make the main female character disgusting to her lover? Or just so disgusting in general? Why did the city have to be so unappealing? Perhaps there is explanation later in the book, but how did such a horrific place come to be and why did anyone live there? Why didn't they all move to the countryside that seems to surround the city? And why should I want to subject myself to such a gross culture anyway? The first four chapters didn't show me why, there wasn't a single character who appealed to me, who I could relate or care about, and if an author can't catch me by then, I've got better things to read. (Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but I, like many of you I'm sure, have a huge want-to-read pile.) Maybe there is a good point in not having everything hunky-dory and pastoral, but one can go too far in the other direction as well! Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:40:01 +1100 From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU >Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book? Yes. I'm afraid I didn't really finish the book: I skim-read the last quarter at least, only pausing to read the bits with the Spider (which I thought was a fabulous invention - the creature that attempts to assert an incomprehensible aesthetic pattern on the events it sees - brilliant!). I agree there was a lot of telling rather than showing, & I'm afraid the style didn't work for me. I couldn't quite put my finger on why until I heard someone describe it as 'overwritten'. For me, there was too much description of effluence & its associated sordidness. Mieville mentions Mervyn Peake's books in his acknowledgements. For me, the biggest difference between the authors is that Peake took an ugly world & made it beautiful, whereas Mieville took an ugly world & kept reminding me how ugly it was. I wasn't happy being there, if that makes sense. >What did you think of it as a whole? A clever, original fantasy, but not one that really got me emotionally involved. I will certainly try his newest novel, though. >What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, Derkhan? Yaz & Lin were interesting characters that seemed under-utilised. I agree with Jennifer's comment that Derkhan was never fully developed. I'm afraid I didn't find Isaac particularly interesting, which no doubt contributed to my difficulty in reading the book. >What do you think of the plot and the end? Jennifer replied: "Even the betrayal by Isaac's roommate didn't bother me, I guess I didn't care that much." I agree (again!) with Jennifer's comments on the plot: it didn't really interest me. A friend of mine described it enthusiastically as 'a giant-bug hunt', but I'm afraid it just didn't hold my attention. It's certainly provoking an interesting discussion, though! Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:53:57 +0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Several list members (not all) said that they had problems finishing or even starting the book. I think it noteworthy that the reasons seem to differ. Pamela was it too degusting and she didn't care about the characters. Bridget does not really know why she has problems finishing although she mentions Miéville's "in-your-face realism". Mary-Elizabeth cites the "chase scene after chase scene", Deborah describes it as "overwritten". Like Mary-Elizabeth I was wearied in the end by the many (often somehow silly) attempts to kill the moths, but I didn't have the problems with the "crass descriptions" but with the crass things happening to people. The first longer stop in reading (for about a week) was after the last "conversation" between Derkhan and Ben Frost. I'm terribly afraid of torture and (unfortunately) terribly sentimental and to imagine that this guy tries to prepare for torture and death was too much for me. Pamela [mailto:momtotsan@hotmail.com] wrote: > Why did the author make the main female character disgusting > to her lover? Lin wasn't "disgusting" to Isaac in general. Actually it's only a topic in the first chapter and it cuts both ways: "It was when she ate that Lin was most alien, and their shared meals were a challenge and an affirmation. As he watched her, Isaac felt the familiar trill of emotion: disgust immediately stamped out, pride at the stamping out, guilty desire. Light glinted in Lin's compound eyes. Her headlegs quivered. She picked up half a tomato and gripped it with her mandibles. She lowered her hands while her inner mouthparts picked at the food her outer jaw held steady. Isaac watched the huge iridescent scarab that was his lover's head devour her breakfast. He watched her swallow, saw her throat bob where the pale insectile underbelly segued smoothly into her human neck ... NOT THAT SHE WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THAT DESCRIPTION. Humans have khepri bodies, legs, hands; and the heads of shaved gibbons, she had once told him. He smiled and dangled his fried pork in front of him, curled his tongue around it, wiped his greasy fingers on the table. He smiled at her. She undulated her headlegs at him and signed, My monster. I am a pervert, thought Isaac, and so is she." Compare that to Star Trek where the aliens have little facial bumps and ridges or decorative spots. Where anybody pairs and couples with each other and the only question is whether common children can be had at all and if whether they can be safely born? Was there ever a (for us) really disgusting alien in ST? Did Picard or any of the crew ever feel how alien aliens are? They were always fascinated and wide open, but never changed by what they learned and experienced (that's of course a prerequisite of a TV series). But is that realistic? Isn't it more realistic that one has to work against the alien feelings by learning about the strangers, so far that they are familiar and by changing in the process? "As Lin gathered her notes and sketches to go, Isaac tugged her gently onto him, on the bed. He kissed her warm red skin. She turned in his arms. She angled up on one elbow and, as he watched, the dark ruby of her carapace opened slowly while her headlegs splayed. The two halves of her headshell quivered slightly, held as wide as they would go. From beneath their shade she spread her beautiful, useless little beetle wings. She pulled his hand towards them gently, invited him to stroke the fragile things, totally vulnerable, an expression of trust and love unparalleled for the khepri. The air between them charged. Isaac's cock stiffened. He traced the branching veins in her gently vibrating wings with his fingers, watched the light that passed through them refract into mother-of-pearl shadows. ..." Imagine making love to an oversized beetle (head)! And it worked. Actually, I was fascinated by this relationship and would have liked a closer inspection about how it worked and how it would have developed without the interference of the slake-moths. By the way, perhaps because the relationship remained in the background for me the fear about what would happen if their relationship became known was (to me) somehow not really convincing. Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de www.feministische-sf.de ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 18:14:07 -0500 From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] AW: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi Petra, everyone /snip/Compare that to Star Trek where the aliens have little facial bumps and ridges or decorative spots. Where anybody pairs and couples with each other and the only question is whether common children can be had at all and if whether they can be safely born? Was there ever a (for us) really disgusting alien in ST? Did Picard or any of the crew ever feel how alien aliens are? They were always fascinated and wide open, but never changed by what they learned and experienced (that's of course a prerequisite of a TV series). But is that realistic? Isn't it more realistic that one has to work against the alien feelings by learning about the strangers, so far that they are familiar and by changing in the process?/snip/ Well, Star Trek isn't what I would choose as a comparison. Perhaps a Door into Ocean where they are all human at some level, but the female residents of Ocean (the Sharers) are distinctly alien from the mixed species who inhabit the planet (I forget what they call themselves). The women are biologically distinct in having taken aboard parasites that change their physiology , internally and externally, and they are culturally very distinct. There is some revulsion, at first on the part of young man who goes to live with them, but rather than having to repress it everytime he sees it as Isaac apparently does everytime he sees Lin eat, he learns to accept it, even to appreciate it. And finally he takes the parasite for himself and becomes one of them. Talk about growth! Talk about challenging one's notion of self, of letting alien ideas affect you! Perhaps it is too much of an identification, and there needed to be a dialectic process (which there is to a certain extent because on of them takes him as a lover instead of another female as she would have if no male had joined their group.) Anyway, it is vastly different than being in a perpetual state of revulsion. Clearly, Isaac does not feel constant revulsion at Lin, only from time to time, perhaps only when she eats, but still it makes an unappealing relationship, for me, as it is one that appears to be based not upon his caring for her, but upon his own pride at being able to squelch his revulsion and his own gratification at her trust in him. Perhaps the problem I am having is that we have no introduction (at least up to chapter four) of how they met, how they fell in love (if that's what they are), or how they decided to become lovers. Again, perhaps it is discussed later, and I can make guesses based on what I've read that Lin would take a lover outside the khepri circle simply out of rejection of her own species. Again, not a very pleasant basis for a relationship. Perhaps a realistic one, but also what I would consider an abusive or at least usurious. I guess I just didn't believe in the relationship; we saw so little of what pulled them together, besides sex, that I doubted that they would really have been lovers, or at least for any length of time. /snip/Imagine making love to an oversized beetle (head)! And it worked./snip/ One of the problems I had was that the imagery did not work for me. I kept trying to picture Lin in my mind as described and I couldn't get an image. I couldn't figure out the details of how her head connected to her body, and if it was a complete scarab body or a partial one, one assumes the latter if she'd got a complete carapace, but how does that fit with the belly joining smoothly with the neck etc. This really pulled me out of the scene. Similarly, the descriptions of the city left me feeling, ok this place is sordid, but I can't picture what it looks like. Even the slug in his tub was visually vague. Also, I found myself wondering how realistic is an alien that is half beetle/half woman? Either aliens are going to be vastly different, or eerily similar to forms we know. A mingling of orders seems unlikely, so unlikely that I kept expecting to find out that the khepri were a product of some experiment, not an alien species. Is there ever an explanation of how these various races came to be at Crobuzon? Or how Crobuzon came to be? I kept thinking, I should continue on, I should at least get to the point where I find out why this commission is so dangerous and what incredible experiment Isaac is going to work on, but I just could never get into the book. Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:43:07 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I just finished reading Perdido Street Station and I must admit that I was devastated by the ending. How bleak, how utterly depressing. I am no literary critic, nor do I know really how to discuss a book very well. However, I do know that many books affect me deeply, leave lasting impressions, change my outlook on the world. PSS did all of this for me, but to a negative effect. And I'm not sure I like it. Miéville has an incredible knack for bringing out the sordidness of the world, for showing just how cruel people can be - not only to others but also to themselves. And this is what I found so devastating about the ending. Yagharek was betrayed by a friend not so much because Isaac decided he couldn't help him but much more because he was too lily-livered to tell Yag himself. I found myself close to tears at the end when Yag tells us in his own voice (is it interesting that his is the only first person voice?) what he is going through. Mostly because he was so full of shame, and self- loathing and had found no acceptance or forgiveness, although he clearly regretted what he had done and felt he deserved his punishment. Unfortunately, I feel that Miéville's writing of the dialogue we all carry on with our inner demons and the resulting feelings is all too realistic. I feel as though the book were one great spiralling to the depths of devastation. There was no mercy whatsoever. PSS is a great book, with wonderful invention and Miéville is indeed a talented writer. But if this is his style, I don't think I'll read any more of his books. Just too depressing. That said, I'll try to respond to some of Petra's questions: > What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, > Derkhan? I felt that Yag was really the only character who changed over the course of the book. He started off rather 2 dimensional and became more and more a real person as the book progressed. I have to admit I liked him and while I don't condone his crime, I think he paid enough for it and atoned for it sufficiently. Really I found Isaac a rather flat character. I really only found him remotely interesting when he got excited about his work. I liked Lin the most and was very disappointed to find her killed off so early, but I see why she had to be. I feel like Miéville himself identified the most with her and had fun fleshing out her character. At any rate it made for good dramatic effect when she was "kidnapped" and then in the end rendered imbecilic. I'm not sure about Derkhan. She had spunk and I'm glad she was there, but I was never sure quite why she was around, or what motivated her to do what she did from the start. > What did you think of that Isaac was not interested in Yaz' crime in > the beginning but saw it in the end as sufficient reason NOT to finish > the crisis energy machine for Yaz? I'm OK with Isaac's reasons for not finishing Yag's commission, what I'm not OK is that Isaac left Yag in the lurch. That Isaac was too scared to be a true friend to Yag and simply tell him what he was doing and why. > In some reviews it's said that the end is rushed. Perhaps because it > took me such a long time to read I didn't see it that way. What do you > think of the plot and the end? I thought the plot was good but as said I hated the end. Not that I like sappy happy endings but this was just too sad. > Until nearly the end I wondered why the book was short-listed for the > 2000 Tiptree. I don't profess to know anything about this sort of thing. This is why I've been mostly lurking on this list since I join. You all are teaching me about it! > ??? I suppose they meant the "choice-theft in the second degree, with > utter disrespect". What did you think of that part? I think it's good that Miéville ranks what the garuda call choice-theft in the second degree with utter disrespect (and what we would call rape) as such a heinous crime. I don't think that's probably what they shortlisted it for. > Do you see other gender-bending aspects? How would you interpret > the Tiptree comments? They probably meant Isaac and Lin's interspecies relationship, although I don't think he went into it sufficiently. He "killed" Lin off before he really got started. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:49:07 -0700 From: Angela Barclay Subject: [*FSF-L*] Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Godsspit what a book. I was so enthralled by this work I forked out another $30 for Miéville's latest: _Scar_. Like a scab PSS was gruesomely fascinating; like something one can't help but pick at and try to look at what's underneath . . . like something that can leave a mark on you. This was, as so many listmembers have mentioned, not an easy read. Usually when I am this fascinated by a book I devour it in a week or less. This took me about a month- I really needed to concentrate on the dense prose. On a negative note, I was frustrated (and intimidated) by the vocabulary. I think all of those million dollar words detracted from the work. On practically every page there was a word I would not be able to use. I kept thinking I should look some of them up or make a list and look them up later, but I didn't. I didn't want to stop reading that often. In addition to the vocabularly, I felt there were details that went over my head. I didn't get the importance of the railways and of Perdido Street Station itself. That may be because I'm not very setting-oriented. A friend of mine read bits of it and commented that the setting was very London: the river and the railway. It would be interesting to hear from some of our English members. How much of _Perdido_ is representative of England and English culture? I'm also curious as to: what was the significance of The Ribs . . . whether others thought the Khepri might have fled from the Slakemoths . . . For me this book was about being flawed and about being Other. I think its celebration of and focus on Otherness is what pushes it to the border of being feminist/Tiptree Award-worthy. I think what would make it clearly more so would be more than just an implication that Lin and Derkhan were more than friends and that Pengefiness and her consorts were "passionate." The only forbidden love explored is that between Lin and Isaac. Miéville's descriptions of that are incredibly romantic and erotic. Several subscribers have commented on Isaac being occasionally repulsed by Lin. I don't see that as being problematic. Since Isaac's society treated human-khepri coupling as deviant I think it would be natural for him to feel some hesitation. I think many of us are occasionally repulsed or turned off by the habits of our lovers and loved ones: table manners . . . bodily functions . . . I can't think of a character in this novel that isn't flawed, rogue, alien in some way. I thought the 'alien' characters were amazing. I was fascinated by the construct-network, the remade, the symbiotic creatures (like the undine), the moths and most of all that mad-poet spider. I enjoyed reading its stream-of-consciousness monologue. The non-human characters seemed more human than the humans themselves. I liked Isaac for his mad-genius, his irreverance and his enormous love for Lin, but otherwise found him flat. Aside from being the brains behind the plot against the moths, for me he was defined merely by his relationships with others: Lin, Yag, Construct-Intelligence, Moths, Spider. Derkhan was also disappointing. I wanted to know more about her. My favorite Others were Lin and Yag. While I was shocked and apalled that Yag was guilty of rape, as I had come to like the creature more and more, I appreciated that Miéville described his as the most heinous of crimes and that Yag recognized the atrocity of what he'd done. I can't get my head around what Miéville did to Lin; crippling her mentally *and* physically is just too dark. I wished he'd left the door open to her being healed. Maybe that's why there seems to be room for a sequel. Petra, thanks for nominating this book! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:54:02 -0000 From: sc Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU >A friend of >mine read bits of it and commented that the setting was very London: the >river and the railway. It would be interesting to hear from some of our >English members. How much of _Perdido_ is representative of England and >English culture? I suspect New Crobuzon has got its roots in London but as you say later, the book is more about "Otherness" than anything else, and every city has its outlaws, outsiders, areas where most of us won't walk at night, so I don't see anything especially "English" in the culture. >I'm also curious as to: what was the significance of The Ribs . . . I was sort of expecting a revelation about them - as if they were the bones of a great leviathan or dinosaur. Maybe in a later novel, with any luck? >For me this book was about being flawed and about being Other. I think its >celebration of and focus on Otherness is what pushes it to the border of >being feminist/Tiptree Award-worthy. There's quite a bit of science fiction where the protagonists are misfits outside the rules of "normal" society, but that doesn't necessarily mean it illuminates gender issues, which is what I understood the Tiptree to be about. I think the characters in "Perdido" fall into that category. I found Mieville's later novel "The Scar" to have a more interesting take on gender, though not at the forefront of the narrative. I'd love to know what you think of that one. Cheers SC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:40:40 -0500 From: Sandra Williams Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU To all-- Been lurking for a few months and enjoy the discussions that come up. Petra Mayerhofer asked (many days ago ): >> Did anybody else have difficulties finishing the book? << None! I read it in just a few days; it's one of those books I don't mind missing sleep for. One time I had to put it down because it was too exciting--the scene where Isaac and the other characters were actually going in the slake-moth's lair inside the cactus people's dome--but I picked it back up as soon as my pulse settled down. >> What did you think of it as a whole? << My favorite book of 2002. A relief--a fantasy that didn't rely on tired old feudalism, and a pleasure to read. Yeah, it was dark, but I loved the ending. There ain't no happily ever after, most times, and such an ending would have made me hurl the book against the wall. It's one of those books, IMO, that can be reread with a new meaning each time. >> What did you think of the (main) protagonists? Yaz, Isaac, Lin, Derkhan? << Of course Lin was my favorite--I almost always like the women better. She's a little weak, and conflicted. The only thing she was sure of, it seemed to me, was that she had to create her art. Isaac was interesting and realistic--he wasn't meant to be a heartthrob. Too often, IMO, the protag is meant to be someone the reader can fantasize about sexually, which isn't what I look for when I'm reading. Derkhan, if she's the one I'm thinking of, was a throwaway character. I liked her and would have been interested in her backstory, but I could see not clogging the plot further. Yaz--his voice, I thought, was the voice of the novel. Choice, theft of choice. What else do we have? >> What did you think of that Isaac was not interested in Yaz' crime in the beginning but saw it in the end as sufficient reason NOT to finish the crisis energy machine for Yaz? << Isaac was taking the crime personally. He wanted to have sex with Lin but couldn't unless he took her without her *conscious* choice. His repudiation of Yaz underscored his horror at the temptation he felt. >> What do you think of the plot and the end? << The perfect ending for that story. Anything else would have felt untrue. >> what is the gender-bending in it? << Lin. Think about it--a human female body attached to a functioning bug head? There's no logical reason to put the two together, none. The bug head ate and reproduced and shit. Lin's bug head, IMO, is a metaphor of a thinking woman. Isaac desires her body and comes to accept her bug head despite his urges otherwise. Her art, notice, came from the bug part of her. I don't think it's an accident both were members of and met through the intelligentsia. Where else could he have come in contact with a thinking woman? For those of you who haven't made it through the book, there's a scene where Lin visits an enclave (maybe even the same one where she grew up--I read the book several months ago) and thinks about her early life when her mother forced her to wait hand and foot on her brother bugs and allow them to enter her bug head for mating purposes. The boy bugs did nothing for themselves. Many of the female bugs (sorry, I can't remember the word from the book) broke away and formed all-female enclaves where they wouldn't have to devote themselves to the boy bugs. Another powerful metaphor, IMO, is the Remade. What a grisly and accurate representation of our prison system! We send people to prison where they will, if they aren't already, be socialized to NOT fit into society. --Sandra Williams "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." --Rudyard Kipling ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:38:46 -0000 From: sc Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU ----- Original Message ----- From: Sandra Williams To: Sent: 20 January 2003 16:40 Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station >Her art, >notice, came from the bug part of her. I don't think it's an accident both >were members of and met through the intelligentsia. Where else could he >have come in contact with a thinking woman? A big thank-you from a working class woman. Nice to be relieved of the burden of all that tiresome "thinking", the chore having been taken over by people who make art. Next time I'm asked to design and build a secure computer network I'll pass the task straight to Tracy Emmin. SC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:26:39 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU sc wrote on 1/21/03 1:38 PM: > A big thank-you from a working class woman. Nice to be relieved of the > burden of all that tiresome "thinking", the chore having been taken over by > people who make art. I'm not sure why you perceived Sandra's comments as insulting to working class women. I reviewed her email, and I think I must have interpreted her comments quite differently. Sandra wrote: >Lin's bug head, IMO, is a metaphor of a thinking woman. Isaac desires her >body and comes to accept her bug head despite his urges otherwise. I felt her description of the bug head as "a metaphor of a thinking woman" to be quite interesting. Without making any unfair generalizations, I think it is true that there are some people who initiate interpersonal relationships without any desire for an intellectual component. Sandra continues: >Her art, >notice, came from the bug part of her. Frankly, I am surprised that there hasn't been more discussion on this issue. What does the whole "bug art" thing mean? The process of Lin uses to create her art, is that just a nifty detail? Or can some deeper meaning be found there? (This reminds me of a quote that I can't for the life of me remember. Something about writing and bleeding. Anyone know it?) SC, I realize your post was sarcastic, but I don't think I really understand what you mean. Will you elaborate, please? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:02:37 +1100 From: Deborah Biancotti Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU >(This reminds me of a quote that I can't for the life of me remember. >Something about writing and bleeding. Anyone know it?) Is it this one? Writing is easy. All you do is stare at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead. Gene Fowler I hadn't thought about it like that (as in: Lin's art comes from her head, thus being a statement on the thinking women). Personally, I found her art disgusting: in much the same way Isaac found her eating disgusting. To me, it was primal and earthy, and yes, gross. (Like childbirth! ;) The opposite of thinking, in fact. But I'm very interested in this idea it came from her head & thus the thinking part of her, & would like to hear from others on the matter. Cheers, Deborah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:18:28 -0800 From: Leeann Ford Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station/class issue To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I feel I'm pretty clear on the substance of sc's objection. Torrence,to judge by your quotes, you are looking at a different paragraph than the one sc is quoting--which contains the assertion that one does not encounter 'thinking women' outside the Intelligentsia. sc, as a working class woman who seems to spend a lot of time thinking, heartily disagrees. I think the ideas that Sandra introduces w/r/t the dual nature of the character are interesting. But that other part of the argument bothers me, too I'd be interested to read what Sandra might have to say in explanation. This is my first post, by way of introduction I guess. I'm Leeann, not to be confused with the other Leeanne on list. Quoting Torrence : > sc wrote on 1/21/03 1:38 PM: > > > A big thank-you from a working class woman. Nice to be relieved of the > > burden of all that tiresome "thinking", the chore having been taken over by > > people who make art. > > I'm not sure why you perceived Sandra's comments as insulting to working > class women. I reviewed her email, and I think I must have interpreted her > comments quite differently. Sandra wrote: > > >Lin's bug head, IMO, is a metaphor of a thinking woman. Isaac desires her > >body and comes to accept her bug head despite his urges otherwise. > > I felt her description of the bug head as "a metaphor of a thinking woman" > to be quite interesting. Without making any unfair generalizations, I think > it is true that there are some people who initiate interpersonal > relationships without any desire for an intellectual component. > > Sandra continues: > >Her art, notice, came from the bug part of her. > > Frankly, I am surprised that there hasn't been more discussion on this > issue. What does the whole "bug art" thing mean? The process of Lin uses to > create her art, is that just a nifty detail? Or can some deeper meaning be > found there? > > (This reminds me of a quote that I can't for the life of me remember. > Something about writing and bleeding. Anyone know it?) > > SC, I realize your post was sarcastic, but I don't think I really > understand > what you mean. Will you elaborate, please? > > Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:33:57 -0500 From: Sandra Williams Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU SC-- sc said: > A big thank-you from a working class woman. Nice to be relieved of the > burden of all that tiresome "thinking", the chore having been taken over by > people who make art. Next time I'm asked to design and build a secure > computer network I'll pass the task straight to Tracy Emmin. I have to confess my ignorance. I don't know who Tracy Emmin is. I'm on digest, BTW, so if you've written later posts I haven't seen them. :( As for Lin, Isaac, and intelligentsia-- I thought it was pretty clear that in PSS, the people were divided into classes, and the powers-that-be wanted to maintain that structure. The scene where the publisher was apprehended in the slaughterhouse was a frightening example. The way I read the book, people were kept working so hard so they lacked the energy to think in unfamiliar channels, to challenge convention. Once they learned how to survive following the rules, they wouldn't want to see the rules changed, because then they might be worse off. Isaac was daringly nonconformist in associating with Lin--as long as he didn't think it would affect his income, and he worried that his relationship with Lin would hurt his university privileges. The bit about the computer-trash being (I can't remember what it was called) is another example of class conservatism; the thing's followers merely switched allegiance from one system that thought for them to another. The intelligentsia, the group of artists Isaac hung out with, made a life of being nonconformist. Only there, where people were expected to be shocking and different, could a pervert--a woman with a brain--shine. Kind of funny she couldn't talk, now I think about it. Lovely body, could be seen but not heard--her only drawback was that unsightly head. Lin's artist friends were allowed to, or supposed to, come up with brilliant, original ideas, but it didn't matter because they weren't taken seriously--sort of like now, where one of the easiest ways to mock an idea is to point out the actors who support it. (And that's a different topic, why some actors are considered respectable and others flakes.) None of these ideas crossed my mind until I read Petra's questions, though. I just enjoyed the book so much I flew through it. Flew... Of course Yaz was a bird-man. When he stole someone's freedom of choice, he lost his; his wings were clipped. --Sandra Williams "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." --Rudyard Kipling ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:50:49 -0500 From: Gwen Veazey Subject: [*FSF-L*] Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hello all, I have only just finished _Perdido Street Station_. Hope it's OK to offer a comment or two. Have enjoyed what all said, very thought provoking. I don't read much adult fantasy, no horror. Is this considered "science fantasy" or "science horror?" The author should get credit for all the science/pseudoscience, I think. Mieville's talent in presenting his vision drew me right in. I loved the outward strangeness, yet human personalities of the characters, especially the khepri (Lin) and the vodyanoi - frog folk. I sensed the excitement of starting a great story where you are skillfully presented with intriguing characters, and many wondrous sights, sounds, and sensations, and you know you are settling into a worthwhile read. Delighted, I felt something was going to happen toward a healing or "fixing" of the ruthless government, the crime boss, the racism, the oppression of dock workers, etc. OK, the corruption and filth of New Crobuzon was a clue, but I was in denial, and full fairy-tale expectation mode. Humor even appeared, for example in the competitiveness of the underground radical newspapers. And what a pleasant surprise, the author shows an understanding of feminist theology, involving me even more deeply into Lin's character. Then, bam, it turns into a vampire horror story. Not only that, I actually lost sleep over the torture and brain damage forced on Lin. WHAT was the author thinking? Bad boy! So, I feel a little like someone dazzled and held by a slake moth, then left with nothing. Not sure what to say about the hopeless anarchy of the story. The individuals were all on their own, except for an unpredictable spider creature who would just as soon slice your ear off as look at you (why was Derkhan the only "good" character singled out for this?), and the "Construct" community which had ulterior, devious motives. I wanted something more than just several of the heroic characters escaping with their lives. Not that I think this book is a hunk of the drug central to the story, but it did grab me for a while and leave me with despair. One of the disturbing aspects of this story for me was the focus on punishment for rape. This reminded me of harsh countries where hands are cut off for theft, and often the punishment for rape is death, which IMHO is not beneficial to women. One person wrote of Yag: "I have to admit I liked him and while I don't condone his crime, I think he paid enough for it and atoned for it sufficiently." I believe the author intended for readers to feel this way. Yag was presented as a most sympathetic character despite the brutal sexual assault. He did repent, after all. On a more lighthearted note: I couldn't help but notice how the female creature-beings had human sex organs. The cactus women had breasts (with dark green nipples), the khepri women had completely human female bodies from neck down, even the slake moths had "teats." And the garuda female at the end had faux breast mounds under her feathers! :) Despite some of my comments, I am glad I read PSS. (Haven't decided if I want to read any more of this author, however.). Thanks to whomever nominated and voted it in. Best, Gwen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:09:20 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: A Note about Perdido Street Station To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi everyone -- I still have not finished *Perdido Street Station* and thus have no substantial comments about it, but I thought you would all like to know that completely by accident I learned that the word "garuda" refers to a Hindu deity who is half bird, half man. He's identified with the sun, is the natural enemy of all snakes, and frequently gives Vishnu rides. More info is here: http://members.tripod.com/~tudtu/garuda.htm And here: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/06/sse/hod_1992.135.htm For what it's worth! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Travis -- The Man Who "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick