Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:28:35 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU It's April and time to discuss *The Northern Girl* by Elizabeth Lynn. What struck me most about this book was its style. Short, blunt sentences; an absence of narrative emotion; a focus on everyday life as well as "big" events. When I first read it, over ten years ago, I found it hard to concentrate on what was happening in the story because it didn't follow the conventions of flow and emphasis that I was familiar with. As a result, I remembered almost nothing of its events. If I had I wouldn't have quoted the misleading blurb from the current edition's back cover in my nomination message: "a humble girl will become part of a revolution in which the common people will find the courage to stand up to tyranny..." Not quite. But I guess a blurb about what really happens in the book might not be exciting enough to get someone to buy it. What does happen? Sorren does chores, plays drums for her employer's scheming brother, becomes friends with a drunken wreck, and avoids the people who may be able to help her develop her psychic talent. At the end she leaves her lover in the city to travel to a dilapidated keep in the frozen north. Not exactly riveting. Then why do I like it so much? It comes back to the berries. The one image that stuck with me from my first reading of the book was that of Arré eating a bowl of berries. Having just finished it for the second time, the image seems trivial, but in another way a perfect distillation of what makes Lynn's style unique. Arré is one of the most important figures in her world's political landscape. Her wranglings with the Council and concern over the machinations of her brother, the Tanjo and the Ismeninas take up much of her time. Yet the details of her daily routine and her small satisfactions feel just as important. She is real to me in a way that many other SF and fantasy protagonists aren't. I'm curious what other people thought of the book. Were you bored? Confused? Transfixed? Discussion is open! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:27:46 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read the trilogy when it first came out, twenty years ago, and loved them. I saved the paperbacks all this time. Imagine my surprise when, upon rereading it this past month, the cover crumbled to pieces as I read. Ha, books. Twenty years ago, it was still novel to find a book where one woman was a major mover and shaker in her community. I, too, was entranced by the little details of daily life sprinkled in and among the political machinations. I was also entranced by the casual acceptance same-sex love had in the book. The one line I remember being shocked and delighted with was when someone says to Sorren, "I thought you were spoken for." Her reply: "I AM spoken for." I was also, at the time, studying martial arts. Our school practiced a blend that was about 50% shotokan karate, 35% aikido, and 15% judo. The concept that the book had of soldiering evolving from the dance was very aikido-like, and thoroughly delightful. Although I remembered practically nothing from my original reading, I liked the book very much this time around, too. Plus, it had all that nostalgia. Thanks. BTW...what are we reading the next two months? I've forgotten. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 07:49:18 -0700 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG NORTHERN GIRL To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I didn't have time to reread NORTHERN GIRL as I hoped. But boy was I pleased when this series came back in print a few years ago. DANCERS OF ARUN remains my favorite of the three, but I find that even if I have lost the details, Lynn's work still resonates with me years later. I think part of the experience was this is the first time I remember reading fantasy which made me feel I could be a part of that world, instead of it feeling insubstantial, or like a fairy tale. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:31:59 -0700 From: John Snead Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG NORTHERN GIRL To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I didn't have time to reread NORTHERN GIRL as I hoped. But boy was I > pleased when this series came back in print a few years ago. DANCERS > OF ARUN remains my favorite of the three, but I find that even if I > have lost the details, Lynn's work still resonates with me years > later. I think part of the experience was this is the first time I > remember reading fantasy which made me feel I could be a part of that > world, instead of it feeling insubstantial, or like a fairy tale. Very much agreed, all three books felt like they were set in a very real and detailed world, populated by complex and multi- dimensional characters. Then again, Lynn wrote lots of SF, and I have found that SF writers often write far better and more detailed fantasy worlds than writers who only write fantasy (likely because there is a lot more world-building in SF). I didn't like The Northern Girl quite as much as the Dancers of Arun, but the political and social details were both fascinating and very real. However, rereading that book once again made me sad that Lynn stopped writing for so many years, and that now that she's started again she's writing wretched piles of awfulness like _Dragon's Winter_. As a previous poster mentions, some of the social details struck me very differently in rereading. Back then, I'd only seen that sort of casual acceptance of homosexuality in a very few books, and gay rights was a somewhat new and tentative topic in the popular media. I was both surprised and happy to find these sorts of ideas when reading any of Lynn's work. Now, in fiction at least, non- homophobic societies are quite common. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:56:08 -0400 From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read this book ages ago off my mother's bookshelf; I think I must have been about twelve. Even at the time I was struck by the little pieces of everyday life, the discussions of what fish to get and which if they didn't have it and what Arre would think if she didn't get either. But I was really blown away by the pronouns, the usage of "she" as an indefinite pronoun. I still remember my feeling of shock when someone said "Get someone to do such-and-such a job, and make sure she's smart" and I realized that it was not a woman-only job ("Talk to the child's mother and make sure she's..."). I'm not sure I've seen it anywhere else--certainly not so casually, in a book that's not self-consciously experimental. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:08:32 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 07:56 AM 4/5/01 -0400, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: >I was really blown away by the pronouns, the usage of "she" as an >indefinite pronoun. I still remember my feeling of shock when someone >said "Get someone to do such-and-such a job, and make sure she's smart" >and I realized that it was not a woman-only job ("Talk to the child's >mother and make sure she's..."). I'm not sure I've seen it anywhere >else--certainly not so casually, in a book that's not self-consciously >experimental. Yes, I liked it too. Lynn pulls off a lot of ground breaking material by simply stating that something is so without explaining why or how. She also implies a lot without explicitly stating it. For instance, Paxe's reaction to her son's attempted rape of Sorren struck me at first as blaming the victim, or at least as being very callous. Just when Sorren needed support, Paxe began avoiding her. But as I read on and thought about the unquestioned power of women in Arun, I decided that maybe Paxe has no concept of "woman as victim". She makes sure that Sorren is physically all right and that is enough, because there isn't all the emotional baggage that comes along with sexual assault in our culture. Looked at this way, her behavior is still a bit self-involved, but not nearly as bad as I first thought. And later on Ricard is shown to have changed for the better -- unusual for a would-be rapist in fiction. What did other people think of Lynn's treatment of this episode? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Gomez -- Liquid Skin "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:23:17 GMT From: Jennifer Javarone Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I too was amazed at first with the use of "she" and the fact that so many jobs were open to women and men alike. I understood right away why Paxe avoided Sorren. It seemed to me that the situation with Sorren served as a reminder to Paxe that she hadn't done as good of a job of parenting Ricard as she would have liked. She didn't want Arre reminding her of the situation with Ricky either. I don't think I would have reacted that way, but I did understand why Paxe did. I also agree that Paxe probably didn't think of Sorren as a victim because of the way women were viewed in their society. And I'm glad Ricard was shown to have changed. Usually when I read about rapists or attempted rapes in fiction, the woman holds a grudge against the man forever and in some cases, she kills him later in a fit of rage. I like the way Lynn dealt with it better, although it does take some getting used to. Jennifer ---------------------------------------------- Superior Net - Upstate NY's ISP of Choice Visit us at http://www.superior.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:21:10 -0400 From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Janice writes: "What does happen? Sorren does chores, plays drums for her employer's scheming brother, becomes friends with a drunken wreck, and avoids the people who may be able to help her develop her psychic talent. At the end she leaves her lover in the city to travel to a dilapidated keep in the frozen north. Not exactly riveting. Then why do I like it so much?" *** *** *** I was just mentioning to my partner the other night how much I was enjoying this novel and yet I couldn't come up with a solid reason why. Now, having finished it, I'm still uncertain. However, I think part of it is something that has already been discussed: the inclusion of everyday details. While I did find them interesting for their own sake, they also contributed to my ability to sink into this other world more easily, to inhabit it alongside these three women. The dustjacket of my borrowed copy says "The land and its people are very much like our own and that is part of Lynn's magic". So I was expecting something very familiar. But I was actually stuck in the first 50 pages of the novel for several days. I felt that the setting was very unfamiliar and it took me quite some time, and the experience of following Sorren through the marketplace and Paxe on her watches and Arre in her meetings, each an everyday activity for these characters, to really feel at home in this story. [This may well have less to do with the book and more to do with the fact that it's been several months since I read any otherworldly fiction.] And then I also gravitate towards books in which the bulk of the action is internal and so I particularly enjoyed Sorren's journey (geographical and emotional) towards a sense of belonging. I also liked the mystery surrounding her visions and the set of cards her mother gave to her, her fear of, and, simultaneously, her desire to, discovering their origins. The figure of Marti Hok loomed large in my reading; I wish we'd gotten to know more of her story as well. So if I try to answer Janice's question for myself, I guess I liked it so much because of the characters that Elizabeth Lynn creates therein; it often comes down to character for me. Anyone else have any character-driven favourites they would recommend? Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:22:07 -0400 From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl - Rape To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Janice writes: "For instance, Paxe's reaction to her son's attempted rape of Sorren struck me at first as blaming the victim, or at least as being very callous." Some aspects of this scene took me aback also. Including when the guard hands Sorren her bracelet of shells and says "You shouldn't play so rough". Was this just another instance of an authority figure suggesting that a woman does something wrong and solicits unwanted attention, I wondered? But then later the guards are embarrassed and tell Arre that they didn't realize who had started the attack. So I wondered if the concept of an attack like this was simply the last thing they expected. As though surely they must have been playing. "because there isn't all the emotional baggage that comes along with sexual assault in our culture." And Lynn always refers to it as an attack, an act of violence uncomplicated by the implication of desire. Still, Sorren does seem to feel badly, childish, even guilty about the fight. When she's asked in the kitchen what she did, she says she fought back. As though that wasn't the expected response? Or maybe that's simply because fighting itself was so rare in Kendra-on-the-Delta, not that she wouldn't be expected to defend herself. When Arre tells her that she doesn't blame her for fighting with her, Sorren replies that she didn't want to, he forced her to, and there is no debate. Jennifer writes: "And I'm glad Ricard was shown to have changed." It was unexpected to have him apologize to Sorren. Perhaps he was compelled to do so because he felt he couldn't return home otherwise, but it's still a side to the event that I don't recall an author showing me before. Interesting. I'm glad the question of this scene was raised and discussed; there's a lot to think about in terms of Lynn's subtleties. And thanks to Janice for recommending the book in the first place. Marcie, whose copy of the Marley novel has just arrived, better late than never ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:06:29 -0700 From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU One of the most positive things I can say is that rereading this volume made me pull the other 2 off my shelf to reread them. They are not earthshaking and typical SF/fantasy (in so much of the genres' older works in particular the plot and heroic doings seem to be ones that affect whole cultures, worlds, universes). But I like the almost "mundane" plotting because I like the characters, I suppose, and because they are dealing with issues that matter. --reminds me a bit of the feel of Chinaa Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh--nothing big happens but the books give a nice evocative feel for a world, culture, and characters. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:08:33 +0200 From: Rowena Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl - Rape To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 11 Apr 2001, at 8:22, Marcie McCauley wrote: > Jennifer writes: > "And I'm glad Ricard was shown to have changed." > > It was unexpected to have him apologize to Sorren. Perhaps he was > compelled to do so because he felt he couldn't return home > otherwise, but it's still a side to the event that I don't recall an > author showing me before. Interesting. The somewhat casual told episode of a rape attempt intertwines with a similar casual description of drug-use. Ricky was high on heaven-weed when he attacked her and it seemed accepted that this is part of the reason for his attack, that and the fact that he is pampered and spoiled. When he was no longer high he could see what he did and apologize for it. It reminded me of Rinniard, a character from the Dancers of Arun, who gets aggressive and unresponsible when he smokes, the conclusion is that he should better not smoke, or if he can't help it, not without his friends around to restrain him. Nowhere seems drug use to be made a big problem of, as long as you don't smoke when you are at your job and as long as you know how you respond to it, it is up to you. What struck me was a lack of psychologising, nowhere is mentioned that it might be somewhat significant that he tried to rape his mother's lover. > Some aspects of this scene took me aback also. Including when the > guard hands Sorren her bracelet of shells and says "You shouldn't > play so rough". Was this just another instance of an authority > figure suggesting that a woman does something wrong and solicits > unwanted attention, I wondered? But then later the guards are > embarrassed and tell Arre that they didn't realize who had started > the attack. So I wondered if the concept of an attack like this was > simply the last thing they expected. As though surely they must have > been playing. when Sorren decides to travel north she is warned of the cold weather and of the difficulty to find food - but no one says that it will be dangerous for a woman alone. Rowena ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:16:39 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Violence & Prosperity To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 10:27 PM 4/3/01 -0800, Sharon Anderson wrote: > I was also, at the time, studying martial arts. Our school practiced a >blend that was about 50% shotokan karate, 35% aikido, and 15% judo. The >concept that the book had of soldiering evolving from the dance was very >aikido-like, and thoroughly delightful. This is a very interesting thread in Lynn's writing. In some ways I think Arun as depicted in *The Northern Girl* is a feminist utopia. Women's opportunities are not limited in any way. In fact, given that most families are matrilineal, they appear to have the upper hand. And physical violence, considered by many as the province of men, is minimized. But it is very clear in all of Lynn's work that violence is not always bad -- sometimes it is necessary and right. Arré is aware that the city policy on weapons may have the side-effect of leaving it helpless in the face of an invasion. But the Ismeninas' experiment with swords leads to quite a few senseless deaths. The chearis, the dancing warriors, are the golden mean. They have a sharply honed skill in combat that slides easily into the art of dance, both tempered by a spiritual understanding of when each is appropriate. They are the living embodiment of "power to" rather than "power over". (As opposed to Mary Gentle's Ash, who seemed traditionally macho, at least to me.) It's interesting that the two closest approximations of the fabled chearis in this book were Isak and Paxe. Isak, a man and a theoretically more peaceful dancer, is set on dominating his sister, while the woman warrior Paxe doesn't want to dominate anyone, and in fact has considerable difficulty disciplining her son in any way. Though Paxe comes closer, it seems that both are missing the spiritual element, the connection to the chea, which has now been assigned as the realm of the witches. The chearis are now nothing but ghosts. I wonder if Lynn is saying that this atomization and loss of wholeness is an inevitable consequence of a relatively just society? That to achieve universal prosperity, glory must die? What do you think? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:12:30 +0200 From: Rowena Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Violence & Prosp To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 19 Apr 2001, at 0:16, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > In some ways I > think Arun as depicted in *The Northern Girl* is a feminist utopia. > Women's opportunities are not limited in any way. I am aware you wrote "in some ways" but I would like to point out that I would be very hesitant to call a society which practice slavery (bond servants) and is so clearly not democratic is a long way from an utopia as I see it.... Now I write this I wonder why nobody mentioned it. The world depicted in The Northern Girl seems so nice in some ways, but on second consideration it has many aspects that bother me. How come nobody here mentioned any of it? Is the book too nice, does that make less critical. Or is it that the strong position of women is such a positive point that other flaws shrink in comparison? Rowena ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:20:40 -0400 From: Marcie McCauley Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] The Northern Girl To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Rowena writes: "I would be very hesitant to call a society which practices slavery (bond servants) and is so clearly not democratic is a long way from an utopia as I see it.... Now I write this I wonder why nobody mentioned it." The copy of NG I read came due at the library so I can't refer to it (and have read a couple other books since to ensure only vague memories) but I seem to recall that this practice *was* criticized by a member of another community in the book. Was it the matriarch in Tornor who disapproved of this perhaps? I think one of the reasons that I enjoyed reading this so much, is that it wasn't all "just as it should be". And, rather than an external threat facing a peaceful society, it was a struggle from within. It felt much more "real" to me with its mishaps and poor judgements than Vanima felt in Watchtower. Janice writes: "I wonder if Lynn is saying that this atomization and loss of wholeness is an inevitable consequence of a relatively just society? That to achieve universal prosperity, glory must die? What do you think?" Damn, now I *really* wish I had that book- what a great question! Maybe the answer is connected to the point that Rowena raised above: the "price" paid to gain (or maintain) power. Or must one expect, that in a heavily-populated urban centre, even in fantastical fiction (!), not everybody can lead a privileged life: someone has to fetch the wine. But does that mean there is a loss of honour for those south of the mountains? Are there no honourable characters in Kendra-on-the-Delta? Is there no glory in Paxe's work for Arre? Interesting enough, though I'm having to content myself with playing around with an answer rather than formulating any conclusions. I'm looking forward to further discussion, hoping there are more of you out there who aren't bookless! ;) Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:19:42 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Violence & Prosp To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 11:12 AM 4/19/01 +0200, Rowena wrote: >I am aware you wrote "in some ways" but I would like to point out that >I would be very hesitant to call a society which practices slavery (bond >servants) and is so clearly not democratic [a] utopia as I see it.... I completely agree. The system of bond, as we see it, seems fairly benign (I kept thinking that Sorren was the most free and easy slave I had ever read about), but it is still an in-your-face reminder of systematic oppression. And, as you say, the power of the Council was a bit scary, given that it consisted of only five people, three of whom were, respectively, stupid, weak and power hungry. (Funny that all three were men... I don't think Lynn is saying that all men are incapable of taking on such responsibility -- look at Tarn Ryth. But is it just a coincidence?) What I am not clear on, not having re-read the other two Tornor books, is how bad things looked in the earlier days of Arun's history. My sense after first reading the trilogy was that it was in part an investigation of social transformation, if not progress, over long periods of time. Arun looked a lot different in *The Northern Girl* than it did in *Watchtower*. And simply because *tNG* was the conclusion of this journey, I found myself wondering if the state of things in Arun by the end was meant to be taken as a high point. Not utopia, maybe, but an investigation of what concessions might have to be made to ensure that certain key problems (e.g. sexism, war) are addressed on a wide scale. Hm. I just don't know. Lynn is nothing if not subtle! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:32:40 +0200 From: Rowena Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- utopic qualities To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 19 Apr 2001, at 23:19, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > At 11:12 AM 4/19/01 +0200, Rowena wrote: > >I am aware you wrote "in some ways" but I would like to point out > >that I would be very hesitant to call a society which practices slavery > >(bond servants) and is so clearly not democratic [a] utopia as I see > >it.... > > I completely agree. The system of bond, as we see it, seems fairly > benign (I kept thinking that Sorren was the most free and easy slave I > had ever read about), but it is still an in-your-face reminder of > systematic oppression. I agree that Sorren's slavery doesn't seem completely dreadful, but remember in the very beginning of the book it is mentioned that guards find it difficult to know how to behave to her, because though being a bondservant she is being treated so well - this certainly suggests that other bondservants are treated differently. How differently is not made clear, but I guess that the people working in the grapefields have a different life. Think of Sorren's mother, it wasn't clear to me whether she was a bondservant herself, but if not, she can't have had many choices if the best option she could provide for her daughter was selling (giving?) her as a bondservant.... > And, as you say, the power of the Council was a > bit scary, given that it consisted of only five people, three of whom > were, respectively, stupid, weak and power hungry. (Funny that all > three were men... I don't think Lynn is saying that all men are > incapable of taking on such responsibility -- look at Tarn Ryth. But > is it just a coincidence?) To me it 'felt like coincidence', if men and women are equal they are equally stupid, though the stupid/bad men seem to outnumber the stupid women. The fact that all these rulers inherit their positions is in my opinion a fundamental flaw (if we are judging the 'utopia degree' so to speak) (I do btw doubt if it was meant as a utopia) > What I am not clear on, not having re-read the other two Tornor books, > is how bad things looked in the earlier days of Arun's history. I find this difficult to compare, partly because they show other parts (both geographically and socially) of Arun. The life in the valley is presented as pretty ideal (part work, part play, part study), no big power struggles - but it was also a pretty young community, quite isolated and formed by people who didn't feel the mainstream of society could give them fulfillment. The society in the North is very harsh and hierarchical, war driven - hardly ideal... (also without strong women, in fact the only choice they seem to have is becoming a 'woman of the keep' which sounded to me as selling sex for safety) In part two we see that the society in the north is no longer constantly at war, but it is still a pretty harsh world. The Asech (nomadic tribes) are also pretty harsh, they totally reject any members of their tribe with psychic abilities - but the rest of Arun is not very welcoming either, Eliath as the 'witch city' that is better avoided. What I found interesting was how the still obscure 'category' of witches in part two managed to become such a power in part three- so much so that their original 'allies' the red clan seemed to be 'replaced' by them. Another thing I liked very much was the attempt to 'write history', the scholars tried to account for what happened and we (at least those having read the two earlier episodes) can see where they go 'wrong'. > sense after first reading the trilogy was that it was in part an > investigation of social transformation, if not progress, over long > periods of time. Arun looked a lot different in *The Northern Girl* > than it did in *Watchtower*. And simply because *tNG* was the > conclusion of this journey, I found myself wondering if the state of > things in Arun by the end was meant to be taken as a high point. Not > utopia, maybe, but an investigation of what concessions might have to > be made to ensure that certain key problems (e.g. sexism, war) are > addressed on a wide scale. Hm. I just don't know. I didn't see it as an 'upward' journey, more as a way of showing that there is a constant shifting balance between powers, all of them having their good and their bad aspects (lack of war is good, but the 'peaceful' powers are also dominating after a while and struggle for power for themselves - also it means a loss of the grace, the chea that the red clan found). greetings, Rowena ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:45:54 -0400 From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Northern Girl as non-utopia To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've been meaning to make this comment for a few days and I think it ties in well with the discussion of bond servants and the closely held power of the city. One of the things I like most about this book is that it is not resolved, it is not The Final Battle, it's even pretty anticlimactic. Tornor's a ruin; Sorren may be going to "save" it, but through trade agreements and balances of power, not through her visions. I'm reminded of Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake, in which the protagonist's quest doesn't turn out at all as we would expect. How it compares with the first two books--certainly the standard of living appears to be higher for everyone, and there's no question that the glory of the cheari has been traded for peace. Spiritual and moral though they were they were certainly warriors. One of the books is all about a war. Because it's so real and so down-to-earth and because the needs and desires that lead to war are so sympathetic, I think we forget about the brutality. The main character is so much a soldier we sometimes think he's unreasonable--but he is the protagonist and we do want him to be happy. This is really one of Lynn's great strengths: making us sympathize with a fundamentally unlikable character. (Her Sardonyx Net is a perfect example.) I don't think she mean Northern Girl to depict a perfect society; I think it's a step along one path, away from one bad thing. And from one very limited perspective, that of Arre's household. Talking of glory--what about the ship that's going to sail off into the ocean and see if there's anything out there? That's incredible, but we see it only as a side curiousity. There is so much going on in this book; that's why I love it. Sorren is in a big city and sometimes she focuses on what I'm interested in and sometimes not, and that's the way life really is. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:09:00 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Characters To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 08:21 AM 4/11/01 -0400, Marcie McCauley wrote: >The figure of Marti Hok loomed large in my reading; I wish we'd gotten >to know more of her story as well. So if I try to answer Janice's >question for myself, I guess I liked it so much because of the >characters that Elizabeth Lynn creates therein; it often comes down to >character for me. Marti Hok was a wonderful character, a crone in the best sense of the word. More than once her snippy comments made me laugh. And I enjoyed the friendship between her and Arré. Both professionally and personally they seemed very compatible, bouncing ideas off one another and providing support for one another in the often stressful business of the Council. Between them, these two "spiders", spinning their webs, appeared to be largely responsible for the orderly operation of the city, yet they never seemed larger than life. It's easy to imagine having lunch with them, sharing gossip over a glass of wine. One glass, and one glass only, for Arré. Maybe because her brother was involved, she seemed much more affected by the stress of all the intrigue than Marti was. I was alarmed when Sorren found her dead drunk after downing two carafes of wine. I was also a little puzzled. In the preceding scene she had been calmly concocting a plan to force Ron Ismenin's hand and didn't seem particularly distraught. But I guess she may have felt that she had earned some relaxation, some forgetfulness. Obviously it went too far. From the description, it sounded like she came very close to fatal alcohol poisoning. Yikes. I wonder if we are supposed to see her as an alcoholic? She's a very unusual one, if so. Her brother Isak was an unusual villain as well. An incredibly skilled, charismatic dancer with a twisted, envious soul. I liked Lynn's approach to his character. He wasn't an embodiment of pure evil; through Arré we got glimpses of what he was like as a child as well as some guesses as to what might have made him the person he became. But there were no excuses made for him, either. However Arré may have slighted him, attempted murder was not an acceptable response. When Arré announced that he was to be exiled, I wondered if he would find some way to menace her from afar. But then I thought, no, it would be more like Lynn to have him change into a better person once his rank and wealth were stripped from him. The answer is beyond the bounds of the story, but it is interesting to think about. It took me a while to warm to Paxe. At first she seemed like a traditional honorable warrior. But then there was her night on the town, first trapping the con-artists then being chased across the city, over roofs and through houses, by her second-in-command Kaleb. Afterwards, while falling asleep, she thought how much she needed him and loved him, how bereft she would be if he left the city. Even at this point, I think she knew that her relationship with Sorren wasn't going to last. Sorren had her whole life ahead of her; Paxe, as she said at the end, "made [her] trip to the mountains years ago." Maybe it's just the point I am at in my own life, but I sensed a poignant ennui in Paxe. Her days of glory were over, she was settled down in a high-status position that was largely routine, people who had been important to her were dead or drifting away... She seemed ripe for a big, life-changing event. Maybe travelling with Kaleb? Another unanswered question. It's a tribute to Lynn's skill that so many of these characters seem to have a life beyond what we read about in the story. As another example, I really wanted to know what was up with Kadra. On the one hand, I found her sickeningly self-destructive; on the other I was very curious about her past as a messenger and how she had come to be such a sad sack. Unfortunately, Sorren didn't meet her until her date with death was imminent. Their lives touched only briefly, and that was all. As a final note, I found that Sorren, the central character of the book, never really came into focus for me. She was more like a roving eye than a full person. I suppose this could be partly explained by her youth. But Arré and Marti Hok both made note of her pleasant personality. Am I imagining it? > Anyone else have any character-driven favourites they > would recommend? Wow, I'm having a hard time narrowing down the list in my head. What SF & fantasy books, apart from *The Northern Girl*, have you read and thought of as good character-driven works? With a little more info, I'm sure I could come up with some recommendations. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 12:36:27 -0500 From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Characters To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Janice wrote: >One glass, and one glass only, for Arré. Maybe because her brother was >involved, she seemed much more affected by the stress of all the intrigue >than Marti was. I was alarmed when Sorren found her dead drunk after >downing two carafes of wine. I was also a little puzzled. In the preceding >scene she had been calmly concocting a plan to force Ron Ismenin's hand >and didn't seem particularly distraught. But I guess she may have felt that >she had earned some relaxation, some forgetfulness. Obviously it went too >far. From the description, it sounded like she came very close to fatal >alcohol poisoning. Yikes. I wonder if we are supposed to see her as an >alcoholic? She's a very unusual one, if so. Though I'm not a medical expert, it seemed clear to me that Arre had diabetes (her love for sweets, the similar health problems of her mother) and put herself into a diabetic coma with too much alcohol. Finishing the book late :( Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:53:26 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Northern Girl -- Characters To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 12:36 PM 5/6/01 -0500, Susan Hericks wrote: >Janice wrote: > >One glass, and one glass only, for Arré. Maybe because her brother was > >involved, she seemed much more affected by the stress of all the intrigue > >than Marti was. I was alarmed when Sorren found her dead drunk after > >downing two carafes of wine. I was also a little puzzled. In the preceding > >scene she had been calmly concocting a plan to force Ron Ismenin's hand > >and didn't seem particularly distraught. But I guess she may have felt that > >she had earned some relaxation, some forgetfulness. Obviously it went too > >far. From the description, it sounded like she came very close to fatal > >alcohol poisoning. Yikes. I wonder if we are supposed to see her as an > >alcoholic? She's a very unusual one, if so. > >Though I'm not a medical expert, it seemed clear to me that Arre had >diabetes (her love for sweets, the similar health problems of her mother) >and put herself into a diabetic coma with too much alcohol. Thank you for this info -- it makes sense now! I just looked up the signs of hyperglycemia, and they match Arré's symptoms, down to the "fruity" breath. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas