Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 01:18:19 -0700 From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Moon and The Sun To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU The book this month is Vonda McIntyre's The Moon and the Sun. Here are some reviews on the web: http://www.theromancereader.com/mcintyre-moon.html http://home.golden.net/~csp/reviews/moon&sun.htm http://www.paintedrock.com/memvis/reviews/general/aug97.htm#anchor419674 http://www.sfsite.com/10b/moon19.htm http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/sf/reviews/moon-and-the-sun.html http://www.twilighttimes.com/reviews.html#moonandsun http://hometown.aol.com/EAlexG/bests.htm http://www.simegen.com/reviews/rereadablebooks/columns/0598.html Vonda N. McIntyre - Bibliography Summary http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?Vonda_N._McIntyre web page http://www.sff.net/people/Vonda/ from my favorite review, by Catherine Asaro: http://www.sfsite.com/01b/moon49.htm "McIntyre's achievement goes deeper than simply telling a story. She gives a well-rendered depiction of why the accomplishments of women throughout history have often gone unacknowledged. Marie-Josephe manages to attain a measure of success because she works day and night, often going without sleep, so she can complete her duties as a lady-in-waiting while fulfilling her obligations to her brother and the King. It is a bruising schedule no one could keep up for long. However, it would have made no difference how great her talent or dedication if she never had the chance to pursue her work in the first place, or to receive the acknowledgment she earned. She succeeds also because she has the support of the King of France -- an ally few people can claim. The Moon and the Sun evokes a question as valid today as in the court of Louis XIV: How much has been lost to our world, throughout history, because women have been denied, either explicitly or through social strictures, the chance to realize their potential?" ------------- The Moon and the Sun is an alternative history novel focusing on Marie-Josephe de la Croix, a Michelangelo type genius gifted in music, drawing, mathematics, and science, an orphan who for some time resided in a very restrictive convent, sister of Father Yves de la Croix a Jesuit priest and natural philosopher. Acting as an agent of Louis IV, the Sun King, Yves kidnaps Sherzad the sea woman, and her male friend in the quest for organs of eternal life. Marie-Josephe's job, in addition to that of lady in waiting at court, is to tame the sea woman and document Yves dissection of the rotting body of her friend. Gradually Marie-Josephe realizes that Sherzad is another form of human and must fight and plot to return her to the sea. Her motives seem to be equally based on the desire for freedom for her friend and the fear that if the king eats her flesh to gain immortality he will commit a mortal sin. During the course of the story Marie-Josephe develops a crush on the Chevalier De Lorraine, lover of the king's brother and one of the many courtly narcissists who plot their own advancement. Eventually she falls in love with Lucien De Barenton, Count De Chretien, a dwarf (but I didn't get the sense he was achondroplastic, did you?), powerful, charming, intelligent and evidently a supremely sensual lover. During the course of the novel characters have to decide to be moral, they have to decide to risk the wrath of king and/or church, they have to decide whether or not the sea woman is human and whether even if she is she should be killed to give the king the false hope of immortality. Things I liked about the novel: a realistic depiction of menstruation -- the debilitating type that keeps Odelette in bed and Marie-Josephe's unexpectedly messy one Marie-Josephe's ability to relate to animals. the fullness of characterization so that no one was all bad or all good, everyone had facets. The sheltered, narcissistic king was shown to be as intelligent as I would imagine a person would have to be to rule 50 years. He was shown to be both cruel and loving. the realistic depiction of the rotting of the sea man, the dirtying of the waters of the sea woman's prison. the singing of the sea woman, of course this is how a sea mammal would communicate. a little bit of the depiction of royal wealth and sensitivities, how the gardeners had to work at night so the king wouldn't have to be offended by the tilling of soil, the expectation of the king that his court favorites would be present for his morning toilet. The ending. The punishments definitely fitted the crimes. What I didn't like about the book: The amount of time devoted to describing royal wealth. It was good to know that American's didn't invent conspicuous consumption, but I just felt oppressed by the emphasis on stuff. Yes, collectors are still paying good money for that "stuff", but I'm not a collector and it became overwhelming. King Louis's possessions became the main character in the novel, at least for a good part of it. I don't think I've ever read a book like this. It could rightly be called a historical romance, and I don't read historical romances. In fact, I don't like romances in general, but who could resist the intelligent and sensual pull of Lucien? It could be called fantasy instead of science fiction, yet science is a major emphasis of the plot and characterizations. No wonder this book won the Nebula Award, what a full and diversified effort. I'm glad I finally got around to reading it, this is one I'll pass on to my friends. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:20:47 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Moon and The Son To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU There's lots to bounce off in Joyce's intro. Here's a few stray reactions to Joyce's opener, and a small rant on the delicacy of the balance between sweet and strange in FSF. Joyce >....felt oppressed by the emphasis on stuff....it became overwhelming. Stuff from that period is more 'stuff-like' than at most periods of history, I think. Not very likeable, to many modern sensibilities. (Including mine: Ormolu...??! Eww, blech.) So, it may be annoying/ oppressive/ overwhelming... but it's also accurate. It's interesting to me where the line is - and the overlap - between these characteristics, in reactions to portrayals. Joyce liked >Marie-Josephe's ability to relate to animals. This was a core element of the book, and it was the one I had the most difficulty with. Uh oh. Marie-Joseph's rapport with the sea-monster - and the sea-monster's rapport with her - struck me as being too sweet, too predictable, almost cloying. To me it feels better and more satisfying, when a predictable 'heartstrings' element like this is messed around with a bit - given a twist. I remember reading another book (possibly by R.A. McAvoy?), in which a girl/woman travelling alone is befriended by a white dog. Your expectation is that the dog will be a protector - and so it seems, for a while. It fits the fairy tale convention. Then the dog is given an alien/hostile edge, and your expectation is up-ended. I remember thinking: wow! got me there! Small rant: It's a delicate and very individual issue, what the right balance is between: -elements which are heartening, lovely, sweet, and predictable (etc) and - elements that cause you to reinterprett, that create tension through the dissonant chord they form between your expectation, and actuality, and that lead to resolution and insight, after messing with your head a bit. For myself, I like the dial tuned to the dark side. Unless I get enough of this to keep me on my toes, I find my interest level plummets. You can put the relevant dimensions in a 2 x 2 matrix, if you're in the mood for such things. Predictable/unpredictable vs Sweet/strange. This balance is a particular challenge with FSF, I think. My guess is that FSF often appeals because of its ability to affirm world views, rather than its ability to disturb them. The fact that there is a lot of variation in where people's dials are set, for this balance, leads to a lot of discussion on the list.... strangely, Heather ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:06:00 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Moon and the Sun To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU A few things, in random order: Someone mentioned they didn't like the obsession with THINGS. I thought this was important, and I am glad of it for several reasons. 1) Although I know a moderate amount about British royalty through the ages, I know nothing about the French. _I_ thought that the obsession with things was only prevalent with Louis XVI and Marie A--who quite rightly lost their heads over such an obsession. I did not know it had been going on for at least two monarchs previously. I seldom read non-fiction any more; I get my history lessons through mysteries and sf. 2) Another thing I learned is that although people were obsessed with visual beauty, they tolerated -- TOLERATED! -- obnoxious odors, even when a little foresight and planning could have solved the problem. I mean, I knew all about pomanders and such (I was a good little member of the SCA in my twenties), but I did not know that Versailles stank. Whoda' thunk it? 3) I think it was important to the plot to point out the obsession with things. Louis thought he owned everything, and was entitled to own everything. The sea creature was his because he sent his ship to go collect it. In other words, it was his because he wanted it. This thinking is typical of two-year-olds. He may have been politically astute, but in some ways he was very stupid. Which brings me to my next point. The priest in the book at one point makes the statement that we (he, Louis, humanity as a whole) have a right to do with the sea creatures as we wish, because God gave us dominion over the animals. Some thinking that typified the middle ages and renaissance died a natural death. Unfortunately, this one didn't. I know, I know, it's a biggie in Christian faith. Although I was (more or less) raised Christian, I never thought much about it as a child. Once I was old enough to understand what Christianity was really all about, I was appalled. This belief that We own Them is one reason. Of course, there are degrees of being appalled. I remember fifteen years ago, planning a vacation with a friend, and mentioning that I wanted to go to Sea World. She very quietly told me that she did not ever go to zoos or any place which kept animals caged. At that point in time, I couldn't understand it. I mean, zoos and such places kept species alive, didn't they? If they displayed animals, it was for the education of the general public, and to make the money needed to further their more enlightened goals. Fast forward to six months ago. One of the secretaries in my office asked why I was a vegetarian. I told her about a television program I had watched a few years ago, which made me lose dinner, lunch, and that morning's breakfast. I told her about the scenes of elephant carcasses, rotting and flyblown, killed for their tusks. "So?" I told her about scenes of the slaughterhouse. "So?" I told her about the scenes of young Chinese children, going to a restaurant for dinner, going behind the building to row upon row of cages containing live puppies and kittens. The children gleefully picked out which one they wanted to eat for dinner. "So? God gave them to us to use any way we choose. If we want to eat them, what's wrong with that?" Plus ca change, plus le meme chose. I think one of the most important things a book can do is to make us question our own values. Unfortunately, this secretary will never read Vonda McIntyre. She hardly ever reads anything at all. If left to her own devices, she'd rather go shopping. I asked her one day if she ever read for pleasure. "Once in a while I'll sit down with a good Barbara Cartland." Sigh. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:55:49 +0100 From: sc Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Moon and the Sun To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >I think it was important to the >plot to point out the obsession with things. For me the constant descriptions of frocks and hairstyles also highlighted how incredibly tedious Marie-Joseph's daily round of dressing and undressing self-obsessed aristos was, when she could have been following her scientific interests. It was like a glimpse into an early "Hello!" magazine. SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:10:04 -0700 From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Moon and Sun To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Regarding Marie-Josephe's rapport with the sea-monster, I just saw a program, maybe on Animal Planet channel, about a horse "listener", a man who has amazing rapport with horses. He has learned to communicate with them using body language they understand, not words. It involves the way he faces them the way he uses his hands with the fingers open or closed which he says reflects to them a big cat with outstretched claws. I don't think a person's ability to communicate with animals is necessarily "sweet". I think it's an instance of our species learning to be open to the differences of other species. Marie-Josephe had what we think of as the renaissance open mind that allowed her to see connections that other more materialistic minded of her contemporaries never even thought about. This ties her in well with super sleepless, super intelligent characters in the book for next month's discussion, Beggars in Spain. We're on an intellectual roll here. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:50:04 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Moon and Sun To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Joyce wrote: >I just saw a program, maybe on Animal Planet channel, about a horse >"listener", a man who has amazing rapport with horses. Maybe the person you were thinking of is Monty Roberts? http://www.montyroberts.com/ He has a book which has just come out which applies the techniques he uses with horses to communication between people. I heard about Monty Roberts first at work, when I saw a guest lecture by Kelly Marks. Kelly mentioned that the techniques she'd been working on turned out to be very compatible with what Monty has been doing, and they have some kind of affiliation with each other - she promotes his message and techniques in the UK, I think. http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/ Like Monty, Kelly is working on 'productised services' which extend the lessons of successful communication with horses to human communication challenges. She is developing a schtick that explores at how her techniques (which are similar to Monty's) apply to the business world. (Myself, I thought she was much more compelling when she stuck to the horse issues. Probably because she has a demonstrated track record there, and is clearly possessed of proven insights that she can pass on to others through teaching.) (Re: what this has to do with sweet'n'sour'n'strange - I agree with Joyce that rapport with animals - or other species - isn't *necessarily* over-sweet as a theme.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:58:48 +0100 From: Angela Barclay Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Moon and the Sun To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I really enjoyed _The Moon and the Sun_ and reading what others thought about it. While _The Book of Ash_ seemed like a fantasy awkwardly stamped on top of a weighty treatise on war; _The Moon and the Sun_, in comparison, is a seamless meld of fact and fiction. I was surprised to learn that people lived so long in the seventeenth century. Was this just the case amongst the privileged? Unlike some of the rest of the reading group, I enjoyed the descriptions of dress and the opulence of the palace; but, like Sharon, I did think there should have been more mention of the odor, squalor and disease that coexisted with the opulence. One of the things I liked most about the novel was how the relationship between the naive but brilliant Marie-Joséphe and the fascinating, worldly Lucien grows into a love "without boundaries; without limits". McIntyre included a delightful mix of bawdy innuendo (and outright lasciviousness) with tender courtship- the kiss that finally takes place between M-J and Lucien is positively scorching. I also liked the tender relationship between the Sea Woman and the Land Woman- how Sea Woman tries to keep Land Woman's feet wet, shortens her period and heals the terrible wound she sustains in the blood letting. One thing I don't understand is why Marie-Joséphe, who is so bright, didn't figure out the creature's ability to heal. I think it would have been very powerful if she and perhaps even Yves had made the discovery and then set the creature free, thus denying the King his greatest wish. It would also have been interesting if M-J was faced with the choice of whether to convince Sherzad or her people to ease Lucien's pain. Like Joyce I've not read a historical/fantastic/feminist romance before. I'd like to try some others in this genre. Does anyone have any recommendations? Angela ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:02:21 EDT From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Moon and the Sun/recommendations To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU In a message dated 6/3/2001 5:58:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET writes: << Like Joyce I've not read a historical/fantastic/feminist romance before. I'd like to try some others in this genre. Does anyone have any recommendations? Angela >> Chelsea Quinn Yarbro has a series of vampire novels where some of the issues are feminist. All novels take place in historic time periods. The series moves from Roman times to early 20th century. Judith Tarr does some as well, I particularly liked _Alamut_. Elizabeth Scarborough has one out as well _The Lady in the Loch_. And if Jane Yolen's Briar Rose is still in print you might want to give that a try. Katherine Kerr has some out I think as well but I don't know about them at all. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:18:31 -0000 From: Wilhelmina Thomas Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Moon and the Sun/recommendations To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I recommend the following Octavia Butler, Catherine Asaro, Terry Brooks, Orson Scott Card, Teresa Edgerton, Roger Zelaney and Judith Merkle Riley. Ms. Riley is a romance writer, but novel with Nostradamus and undead head is a fantasy to me. I also recommend www.sfsite.com as well as the list on Feminist SF/Fantasy page. Wilhelmina