Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:31:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Fisherman discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Here it is already the beginning of March! Time to begin our discussion of Ursula Le Guin's _A Fisherman of the Inland Sea_. Of course this doesn't mean we can't still talk about Female Man, or anything else for that matter. Please continue. I'm not exactly sure the best way to proceed with discussing a collection of stories. I suppose we could begin with something generic such as which did you like the best, or the least? Any comments in particular about the long and informative introduction? It seemed to me that the later stories about the new instant transport mechanism (don't have the book here, sorry) were the meat of the this work. They had a dreamy consistency to them that she does so well. What do you think she was trying to say with the issues raised by this mechanism? Any ideas that come to mind when comparing these stories with her other works, either the earlier ones set on the same worlds, or the more recent books? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: releon@SYR.EDU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jennifer beat me to the punch, but I'm willing to be second here... This is the first collection of short stories I;ve ever read as a coherent whole (aside from anthologies like Women of Wonder and that sort), and I;ve found myself asking a number of different questions about how I should evaluate them. I should also say I am not done, having just started the story after the Shobies. So, Q1: did these stories come before her Hainish ones, Dispossessed, Left Hand... are these where the worlds get their first sketching, or are they after she's sketched them more fully in print? I'm not sure that I find them satisfactory pictures of the folks/cultures in either case, but it bugs me not to know -- like the Anarresti guy was fully hairy! Did I miss that? And she discussed Shevekian temporal physics -- I really feel the need to know what I'm supposed to know going into the books.... and Q2: I feel like when I've finished, there should be a unity to the stories, but this may be because I am so well trained to read lengthy narratives, and don't quite know what to do with these small tastes... And, so far, The Rock That Changed Things is my favorite, absolutely amazing! makes me think of my department's obsession with Derridean narrative theo-critics, and my insistence that the whole mess is just a bunch of white guys trying desperately to hide the power of diversity and maintain their own goodness and rightness, and hegemony over meaning... 'no it doesn't mean freedom, it used to mean freedom but the word doesn't exist anymore' !!! ( paraphrased ) Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:34:01 -0500 Reply-To: releon@SYR.EDU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Huh. Did everyone just hate this book? Nobody even chimed in to tell me how to read short stories! What are people thinking about it? Pick a story, any story... explain churten theory, reinvent freedom, descend the south face, Halloo? Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 06:08:22 +0000 Reply-To: chuard@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Authenticated sender is From: geminiwalker Organization: Gemini Walker Ink Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Huh. Did everyone just hate this book? Nobody even chimed in to > tell me how to read short stories! What are people thinking about > it? Pick a story, any story... explain churten theory, reinvent > freedom, descend the south face, Halloo? > > Rudy Leon > PhD student > Dept. of Religion > Syracuse University > releon@syr.edu Sorry, I don't have the book, an I didn't read it, that's why I didn't say anything. What I just finished was Joanna Russ's Extra Ordinary People, and I really don't have that much to say about it. It is a collection of stories, and I have to get it back to the library today. I must be missing something, because I just didn't get a whole lot out of it. I think I'm just going to have to wait until I find something I *do* get a whole lot out of. ...geminiwalker chuard@earthlink.net To learn more about me, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard updated 2/22/99 ICQ #27240345 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:16:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Rudy asks someone to " explain churten theory". Sheesh, there were three stories trying to do just that and it's still completely incomprehensible to me. Probably I've seen too many Star Wars type movies. I figure you hit the hyperdrive button, there's lots of stars and spirals and great visual effects and viola, you're going faster than light. Le Guin makes it look a tad more complicated. I loved the story in which everyone has to talk the group back to reality. What's the joke about reality being just a collective hunch? Is that what she was getting at? Dancing and singing our way through churten sounds so holistic, like it's a metaphysical "one with the universe" kind of thing. Maybe witches will be able to do it when no one else can. In her introduction Le Guin says people have told her she makes Ike in "Newton's Sleep" "a feeble strawdog,, victim of my notorious bloodthirsty manhating feminist spleen." No, I don't think so. I think he's just a guy who thinks he knows what the rules are and insists on playing by them, a guy completely unable to see the big picture, the worth of all of humanity rather than just his few selected ones. He goes along very well with the obls of "The Rock That Changed Things" with their pride in philosophy and order and their inability to see the "obleness" of the nurobls or the patterns made by color. I guess these stories kind of paved the way for the churten ones by dismissing those blind soles before presenting people of vision. I liked the fact that the compilation ended with a true love story in which a man (wonder of wonders) gives up the glory of physics and scientific research in order to live life with his family and develop himself spiritually. Now there's the most outrageous idea of all. Maybe the stories as a whole are about the rhythm of life. Some like Ike and the obls don't feel it while others like Isidri and Hideo do. Which idea leads to a favorite quote from "Another Story" "Hideo," said my mother, in the terrifying way women have of passing without interval from one subject to another because they have them all present in their mind at once, "you haven't found any kind of relationship?" Churten, I guess, is finding out how to have everything all present at once. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:03:45 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I especially liked The Rock that Changed Things.and First Contact with the Gorgonids. Both were predictable, but pleasant. I just accepted what LeGuin said in her intro re churten theory. She invented it when she needed it to get characters from one place to another. Shades of H. G. Wells! best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: releon@SYR.EDU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: [*FSFFU*] [FSFFU] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Joyce: I was just trying to mix things up, I didn't really expect a full explanation of churten theory, but I like the holistic vision a lot.... I just finished reading 'Dancing to Ganam', and it's such an amazing story! I realize that 'The Shobies' was important for setting it up, but not so enjoyable as an isolated story... Anyways, Ganam has me thinking about the ways that community and perception shape the way we apprehend and deal with reality, but it also is striking that for the story (and for LeGuin?) there is an unshakable reality that is not reshaped by our (mis)perceptions, but which continues on its own self-contained logical trajectories.... or, perhaps she's putting forth just the opposite, that coherence in perception constructs the world, and the more the perception is shared, the larger the group 'transiliencing', the tighter 'reality' is woven by that shared perception.... Once again, makes me think about postmodernism and the nature of reality and truth... It's kind of funny that I am so stuick by this story because reading this collection has left me less than impressed by LeGuin's writing - - some of the stories are just plain awkward, Shobies especially, North Face, cute but, this is LeGuin? part of the reason I made a point to read this month's selection, which I don't always do, is that I feel badly about the lack of LeGuin in my reading life, she's a player on my 'should' list....All I've read of her work is _Dispossessed_ and _Left Hand_, and I've been stuck at the end of the first narrative section of _Always Coming Home_ for the better part of a year -- I think I am too linear (or, too much an academic), to read that one, despite the fact that I really enjoyed what I read! Anyhow, that's my two bits. Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:54:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU R.e. the following,I apolgize if this message comes through twice, but it seemed like it didn't make it the first time :) Susan Joyce Jones wrote: > "Hideo," said my mother, in the terrifying way women have of passing > without interval from one subject to another because they have them all > present in their mind at once, "you haven't found any kind of relationship?" > > Churten, I guess, is finding out how to have everything all present at once. Beautifully put, Joyce! What was so fascinating to me about most all the stories was the issue of perception, especially how disparate perceptions cause breakdown or conflict (or oppression - The Rock that cjanged things) and how our lack of shared perception is so dangerous i.e. in DAncing to GAnam. In other words, the inability to have all things present at once is a big liability! R.e. _Dancing.._, does anyone else have an idea about the function of the opening paragraph? It is a brief ritual and converstaion between Ket and Aketa, asking whether or not "he understood." Does it take place before the four return? After Dalzul visited the first time? (I think yes). So does Dalzul understand what he has done or does he create his own kingship myth without regard to the "actual" culture out of plain egotism? Is that a result of the Churten effect or is he just suffering from human nature/limited perception that happens to be fatal? Hmmmm... Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:08:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Rudy Leon wrote: > Anyways, Ganam has me thinking about the ways that community > and perception shape the way we apprehend and deal with reality, > but it also is striking that for the story (and for LeGuin?) there is an > unshakable reality that is not reshaped by our (mis)perceptions, > but which continues on its own self-contained logical trajectories.... > or, perhaps she's putting forth just the opposite, that coherence in > perception constructs the world, and the more the perception is > shared, the larger the group 'transiliencing', the tighter 'reality' is > woven by that shared perception.... Once again, makes me think > about postmodernism and the nature of reality and truth... Yes, I like how you put that. I think it remained a bit ambiguous whether there was an "unshakable reality" or not. It did seem like the three crewmates getting together formed a more convincing version of what the culture was "really" like versus Dalzul's ideas, but for Dalzul his own "reality" was every bit as "real" even though he didn't become king in the way he thought he would. If our existence is just a form of consciousness, perhaps after "death" he went on living out his own version of Ganam. That's a stretch beyond the story...but I am still fasinated by that opening paragraph and the question of whether Dalzul understands what's going on. Does he or dosn't he? You can't really tell for sure, and that's what I like about it. R.e. the "tighter reality" shaped by larger groups, that makes sense, but as shown in _THe Rock that Changed things_ (and postmodern theory), just because a dominant group agrees on one reality doesn't mean that it's the only one. Freedom!! Whoopee! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:33:50 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman with sexism in the classroom To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Anthea, being a proponent of the "brutal gauntlet" type of teaching writes: >A problem with not putting one's career first is that in most businesses, >20% of the people produce 80% of the work (and therefore 80% of the revenue). >And unfortunately the 9-to-5-ers in an enterprise fall, of course, into the 80% >block. Come the inevitable "restructuring / downsizing / rightsizing", it's >the 9-to-5-ers who find themselves laid off. >But I think both you and Madrone are forgetting that I'm a European recruiting >US citizens to work in Europe. We don't need to come all that way to recruit >second-rate or 9-to-5 people; there's more than enough in Europe to satisfy >the biggest demand. We want the best - bright, cultured, ambitious workaholics >who're prepared to slave away for a really fat salary! To which Jessie replies: >If "9-to-5" is equated with "second-rate", you've defined the workaholic >culture as being the only good one. Again, that's self-fulfilling. You're >free to say that because I work 40 hours a week I must not be doing good >work; but a lot of the workaholics I know envy my job when they find out >what I do and who I work with. They wish they had time to deal with their >relationships properly; they want children but put them off into the >indefinite future, and some never have them; they're invigorated by their >work but somehow they're tired all the time. then Madrone writes: >Dearest Anthea, I am sorry, but it is my most fervent hope that the students I >love never have to work for a machine like your company. We can do better for >each other and for ourselves. As you have seen in another post, I can send >you references about companies that reduced work hours and increased >productivity, and I strongly recommend you study the life and accomplishments >of Milton Hershey, of the wonderful chocolate bar, and how he treated his >employees. This wonderful conversation, far from being off topic, perfectly exemplifies the idea behind some of the stories in Fisherman. Anthea shows why I don't think Le Guinn is male bashing in her presentation of Ike in "Newton's Sleep". Anthea is Ike. She knows the rules, she has no problem weeding out humans who don't fit her idea of perfection, and she also has no ability to see the benefit of advancing humanity as a whole as opposed to promoting a few of the select. Next, her ideas would fit just fine in "The Rock That Changed Things": she could satisfy a few of the obls by finding ever more hard working nurobls to make their world pleasant. Of course it's wonderful for the owner of a company if he can fire a large percentage of the staff and work the remainder into the ground. He makes a lovely big profit and can ignore the fact that a) people are unable to maintain their families because they choose to devote time to those families instead of working countless hours of overtime then b) when people are put down far enough revolutions are inevitable. Eventually all those "downsized" nurobls find the colored stones and begin to throw them. Lastly Jessie and Madrone exemplified the characters in "Another Story" who have found that working driven and solitary does not ennoble the spirit; sacrificing oneself for a fat paycheck is an ultimately meaningless life. Giving back to family and community makes life worthwhile. Working together in love is what makes us human. Le Guinn says that human synergy provides the energy for advancements that can't be accomplished any other way, but not everyone has the vision necessary for that advancement. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:30:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG. The Rock That Changed Everything To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sorry to join the discussion a little late. I'm still in the process of reading *A Fisherman of the Inland Sea* and I'm enjoying every savoury story...even more than I usually enjoy LeGuin. I love the way she weaves word webs. I feel that she manages to achieve what feminist thinkers like Helene Cixous suggest when they encourage women to write themselves, to write women (whatever than means - and it has a multiplicity of meanings!). I think LeGuin manages to do this. And in "The Rock" she engages us in metacritical exploration by outlining (or pointing out) the method by which she does it. We can boil down the story to a simple analogy: the obls create patterns, the nurobls create colour. Men write something, women write something else. The patterns are valued over the colour; in fact, those who think in patterns hardly even discern the colour. In these stories - especially "The Shobies' Story," I think, she is writing colours. And asking us to see that. I really like the title of that story - one might expect it to be called "The Shobies' StorIES". But, she shows that multiple perceptions can combine into a story that is wonderful and meaningful without being totally coherent, in the sense that we usually think of coherence... I saw Ursula LeGuin read in Seattle last weekend, and the piece she read from - a piece intended as a short story, but apparently growing into a short novel not yet published - was amazing. I wonder how much influence Jung and post-Jungian theorists have had on her writing over the past decade or so... Cheers, pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:23:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Mastroianni Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I really liked this collection. I've now moved my unread LeGuin almost to the top of my to-read list (it's right behind the Lensman series, which while definitely not feminist SF, is incredible space opera and has just been rereleased... mmm, bookstore employee discounts!) Maybe I'll comment about individual stories separately... for now I want to give my overall impression of the collection. First, a few quotes that resonate with me for one reason or another: He heard the singing, but only as a noise without significance. It was not until the first rock flew through his window that he looked up and cried out in agitation, "What is the meaning of this?" * * * "We all use each other", Oreth said. "The ritual says: we have no right to do so; therefore, we accept the responsibility for the suffering we cause." * * * "I say 'I'," said Riel, "and an infinite number of sentences could follow. But the next word begins to build the immutable syntax. 'I want--' By the last word of the sentence, there may be no choice at all. And also, you can only use words you know." * * * She was not overly troubled by my fit of weeping. Students are intense people, they laugh and cry, they break down and rebuild. I love LeGuin's use of language. She captures emotion and communication and the *process* of communication and its lack, all oh so vividly for me. And the worlds she creates work from the inside. Any old author, it seems to me, can create a map and a bunch of place names and some rules for the magic of a world (for example). But very few give their places souls. She inhabits her worlds with real people, that I recognize as real not because they are just like me but because though they are not, I am shown- not-told about the differences. They are organic; they fit the landscape. Claudia -- "Not many people think I'm real." -- The Wizard of Speed and Time ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:45:41 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG. The Rock That Changed Everything To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Pamela Bedore wrote: > I wonder how much influence > Jung and post-Jungian theorists have had on her writing over the past > decade or so... Nice post. I'd like to know that too. I always thought _A Wizard of Earthsea_ was *totally* Jungian. Did you know that she is also very into the Tao te Ching and has translated a new version? I just bought a discounted copy available at Daedalus.com if anyone is interested. BTW, book lovers, Daedalus always has great sale books of many kinds! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joe Sutliff Sanders Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >snipping some lovely quotations< > >I love LeGuin's use of language. She captures emotion and communication >and the *process* of communication and its lack, all oh so vividly for me. >And the worlds she creates work from the inside. Any old author, it seems >to me, can create a map and a bunch of place names and some rules for the >magic of a world (for example). But very few give their places souls. >She inhabits her worlds with real people, that I recognize as real not >because they are just like me but because though they are not, I am shown- >not-told about the differences. They are organic; they fit the landscape. > > >Claudia Claudia and others, Have you gotten to look at Le Guin's _Steering the Craft_? It's her 1998 collection of writing exercises. In it, she praises the individual voice and gives some good pointers on developing it. She's truly one of our best. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:05:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 12:26 AM 03/06/99 -0500, Rudy wrote: >It's kind of funny that I am so stuick by this story because reading >this collection has left me less than impressed by LeGuin's writing - >- some of the stories are just plain awkward, Shobies especially, >North Face, cute but, this is LeGuin? part of the reason I made a >point to read this month's selection, which I don't always do, is that >I feel badly about the lack of LeGuin in my reading life, she's a >player on my 'should' list....All I've read of her work is >_Dispossessed_ and _Left Hand_, and I've been stuck at the end of >the first narrative section of _Always Coming Home_ for the better >part of a year -- I think I am too linear (or, too much an academic), >to read that one, despite the fact that I really enjoyed what I read! I recommend Four Ways To Forgiveness as prime Le Guin. Very elegant writing, linear enough story to follow. Characters that really stick with you over time. I was also disappointed by Fisherman. In fact I had already read this collection some years ago but since I had it from the library I didn't remember reading it. It wasn't until about halfway through that I really was sure I'd read it before. Of course it's been so many years since I read her Hain-based books (some of my earliest SF) so I can't recall properly which worlds or cultures were introduced there. The "churten" stories include a variety of cultures and worlds and I wonder if they've been intermingled like this before? (they probably are in Four Ways and I'm betraying my short memory for details like that.) Anyone else disappointed in Fisherman and care to say why and what their favorite Le Guin is? Anyone think Fisherman is among her best and care to argue that point? Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:40:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jennifer asked: > Anyone else disappointed in Fisherman and care to say why and what their > favorite Le Guin is? Anyone think Fisherman is among her best and care to > argue that point? I also recommend _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ . I read _LEft HAnd_ such a long time ago I can't even remember my reaction to it, and I think I might either love it or be really bothered by the male pronouns whenever I get around to reading it again. Small correction, I remember shedding some tears over the story, but I think I thought of Genly as male for convenience's sake. I also really loved _The Lathe of HEaven_ and it's not too long if some of you out there (like me) aren't quite ready to commit to the length of _ALways Coming Home_. One thing it has in common with _Fisherman_, at least in a broad sense, is that LeGuin always seems to be interested in perception and its relativity. The protagonist in _LAthe_ realizes that his dreams beging to dictate reality--the difference is that his perception apparently effects all reality, not just his own. _Four Ways_ deals with the difference of perspective as well, tapping in to different characters from different cultures and worlds. But LeGuin also shows how people from similar worlds (as in the story "Dancing to Ganam)can still have vastly different concepts of reality. The way she brings this around to issues like slavery and sexism are very well done, I think. The working out of different perceptions is what I enjoyed most about Fisherman, especially in the last three stories and the way they sort of hung together around the development of churten tech. I agree with Rudy that The Shobies' story didn't stand up so well on its own but was helped by the next story. As for the north face and the first story where the high maintenance wife and her husband get tricked into driving way into the outback--I liked what Leguin said about how you can't explain a joke and how these are gifts from the dark side of your psyche (perhaps these were not her words). Though thy are not life changing stories, perhaps they demonstrate the role of play and humor in the life of a vibrant writer? I normally wouldn't babble on so unabashedly, but it seems like there' a bit of a lull out there these last couple of weeks. I did enjoy reading what I could of that discussion on primates and such. You all are some smart folks! What the hell, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:15:16 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisher To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Terri Wakefield said she liked again to have online references for the BDGs. I don't have any online references for _A Fisherman_ itself but some on Ursula LeGuin, perhaps others can add more: The Unofficial Ursula K. Le Guin Page: http://www.wenet.net/~lquilter/femsf/authors/leguin.html Some have asked about the chronological order of the Hainish novels. Well Dr. Eliza Sparks provides exactly that at http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/leguinfh.html Then an interview with Le Guin by Slawek Wojtowicz from 1988 http://home.interstat.net/~slawcio/ursula.html David G. Hartwell, Kathryn Cramer have information on the web on their anthology _The Ascent of Wonder: The Evolution of Hard Science Fiction' (1994) which contains two stories by Le Guin. Online are the introductions to these stories: http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/exper/kcramer/anth/NineLives.html http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/exper/kcramer/anth/Acacia.html Elisabeth Sherwin wrote 1997 the article 'Meet the high priestess of science fiction' on Le Guin http://test.dcn.davis.ca.us/go/gizmo/1997/leguin1.html Elizabeth Hand reviewed _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ in 1995 for The Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/reviews/fou r_way.htm I also belong to those who are not overly thrilled by this collection, although I cannot exactly explain why. There is that 'voice of wisdom' that I like. I liked the churten stories, especially the last one, and also the one about the satellite colony. But I think the other stories are rather thin and that lessens the impact of the book. Petra P.S.: I am a bit embarrassed to ask, but can somebody explain the joke of the Northern Face story to me. I simply did not get it. I wanted to reread it but I left the book in Stuttgart. The mountain is an animal (?) and why do the sherbas come and go?. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisher To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >Terri Wakefield said she liked again to have online references for >the BDGs. I don't have any online references for _A Fisherman_ itself >but some on Ursula LeGuin, perhaps others can add more: Thanks. This is great! >P.S.: I am a bit embarrassed to ask, but can somebody explain the >joke of the Northern Face story to me. I simply did not get it. I >wanted to reread it but I left the book in Stuttgart. The mountain is >an animal (?) and why do the sherbas come and go?. Isn't it really a building they are climbing? My favorite LeGuin is *Buffalo Gals and Other Animal Presences*. The novella, *Buffalo Gals*, won some kind of award. I can't remember what. Terri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:00:06 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisher To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra wrote > >P.S.: I am a bit embarrassed to ask, but can somebody explain the > >joke of the Northern Face story to me. I simply did not get it. I > >wanted to reread it but I left the book in Stuttgart. The mountain is > >an animal (?) and why do the sherbas come and go?. I found an old poem of Le Guin's from "Encore Magazine of the Arts," April-May 1977, rptd in *The Language of the Night* pp. 187-188 which might shed some light on this story. EVEREST How long to climb the mountain? Forty years. The native guides are dark, small, brave, evasive. They cannot be bribed. Would you advise the North Face? All the faces frown; so choose. The travelers describe their traveling, not yours. Footholds don't last in ice. Read rocks. Their word endures. And at the top? You stop. They say that you can see the Town. I don't know. You look down. It's strange not to be looking up; hard to be sure just what it is you're seeing. Some say the Town; others perceive a farther Range. The guides turn back. Soulder your pack, put on your coat. >From here on down no track, no goal, no way, no ways. In the immense downward of the evening there may be far within the golden haze a motion or a glittering: waves, towers, heights? remote, remote. The language of the rocks has changed. I knew once what it meant. How long is the descent? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:40:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tao Te Ching To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Leguin reading her translation of Tao Te Ching is also available on audiotape. FB >From Amazon Lao Tzu : Tao Te Ching by Ursula K. Leguin, Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton (Contributor) Audio Cassette (April 1998) Shambhala Pubns; ISBN: 1570623740 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:18:14 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tao Te Ching To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sophia Hegner wrote: > Hi all, > Did someone mention on this list that one of the authors we've been reading > did a translation of the Tao Te Ching? Which author was that? It is Ursula Leguin. It is published by Shambala, 1997. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:33:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Keith Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisher To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Pamela Bedore wrote: > I found an old poem of Le Guin's from "Encore Magazine of the Arts," > April-May 1977, rptd in *The Language of the Night* pp. 187-188 which > might shed some light on this story. This wouldn't be LeGuin's answer to Elliot's Ash Wednesday, now, would it? :) :) Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:27:55 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU It's me again with yet another online link to Le Guin/Fisherman. There is another tribut page to Le Guin called Bohemian Ink http://www.levity.com/corduroy/leguin.htm which I did not post last week because the files were removed at that time. On that page I found a link to a review by Danny Yee about _Fisherman_ http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/book-reviews/h/A_Fisherman_of_the_In land_Sea.html Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed Things" Story: "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" feminist like Le Guin.)" Again the book is 400 km away and I cannot check. I certainly did not note the repeated, inappropriate use of the word 'rape'. Did you? Petra ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:26:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed Things" Story: > "For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is > too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I > also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations > otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, > was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" > feminist like Le Guin.)" > > Again the book is 400 km away and I cannot check. I certainly > did not note the repeated, inappropriate use of the word 'rape'. Did > you? The fact that this person could characterize slavery as a situation "unmarked for discomfort" should be a warning. I took another look at the story and noted the work "rape" four times: First on page 62, giving the general idea that the nurs are slaves and are routinely beaten and raped by the obls, but especially when the stones are out of order. (a situation unmarked for discomfort?!) The second use (p 64) is when Bu approaches an Obl she thinks may answer her question about the stones because he is kind and has never raped her (unlike most of the other Obls, we can logically assume. Still a situation unmarked for discomfort?) The other references to rape are on p 70 and refer to Bu being sent to jail as punishment for asking about the stones. There she is raped by the students "whenever they pleased" and becomes pregnant as a result of this rape. "Unmarked for discomfort" indeed! I don't think it's LeGuin who was "insensitive" here!! And besides, would anyone else here find it offensive to be called a "born again feminist"? Isn't he trying to say she fanatical or (you know how those feminists are) strident?! Sounds like Danny Yee has a few things to leard about "pain and degradation" Sheesh! This midnight tirade brought to you by, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: releon@SYR.EDU Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I did notice the references to rape when I first read the story, largely because they were stated in a matter-of-fact manner that made them function in a rather jarring way. I imagine that this is what our Danny-boy felt was 'unmarked for discomfort' -- what was in fact an attempt to show the degree to which such abuse was an accepted (or common?) part of being a nur. The nurs never get outraged over it; rape is a fact of their lives, as is their general slavery, physical and intellectual. The reviewer missed the point, in a big nig way -- and yet he refers to the story as unsubtle? Maybe you can't bring a horse to water after all... On 24 Mar 99, , Big Yellow Woman wrote: > The fact that this person could characterize slavery as a situation > "unmarked for discomfort" should be a warning. I took another look at the > story and noted the work "rape" four times: First on page 62, giving the > general idea that the nurs are slaves and are routinely beaten and raped > by the obls, but especially when the stones are out of order. (a situation > unmarked for discomfort?!) The second use (p 64) is when Bu approaches an > Obl she thinks may answer her question about the stones because he is kind > and has never raped her (unlike most of the other Obls, we can logically > assume. Still a situation unmarked for discomfort?) The other references > to rape are on p 70 and refer to Bu being sent to jail as punishment for > asking about the stones. There she is raped by the students "whenever > they pleased" and becomes pregnant as a result of this rape. "Unmarked for > discomfort" indeed! I don't think it's LeGuin who was "insensitive" here!! Rudy Leon PhD student Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:44:25 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Fisherman To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra wrote: >Danny Yee criticizes the "The Rock That Changed Things" Story: >"For me, at least, it fell flat on its face - it is >too unsubtle and too close to its target to make a good parable. (I >also thought that the repeated use of the word "rape" in situations >otherwise unmarked for discomfort, let alone pain and degradation, >was insensitive - and somewhat odd, coming from a "born-again" >feminist like Le Guin.)" I guess ol' Danny didn't get it, did he? That's a surprise because if he can refer to rape as discomfort, he should well have understood the obls use of this kind of oppression to keep their nurobls in line. I can just hear one of them thinking, "Yeah, rape is uncomfortable for the nurobls, but you have to do something to get their attention." I agree, it was not a subtle story, and the casual reference to rape just made it that much more powerful. The subtlety, to me, was that it wasn't the repeated abuse that was the ultimate cause of revolt of the nurobls but the recognition of beauty. No wonder there's so much opposition to the NEA from fundamentalist conservatives. They recognize just how dangerous art can be when it opens a person's mind to possibilities, when it makes her believe she could have options. Poor Danny, I guess he should have stopped with The First Contact With the Gorgonids, I don't think the meaning there would have so easily evaded him. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Fisherman of the Inland Sea To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I'm a little tardy with this, but I thought I'd make a stab at *A Fisherman of the Inland Sea* before the month is over... I agree with some other people that this collection of stories is not very strong overall, at least for Le Guin. I found "The First Contact with the Gorgonids" shallow and nasty rather than darkly humorous. "The Ascent of the North Face" seemed pointless, though it's possible that I didn't fully get it. (Small people climbing up the side of a suburban house as if it were Mount Everest, right?) I appreciated the central idea of "The Rock That Changed Things" -- that a narrow, fixed view of reality can reinforce itself so strongly that it prevents one from physically seeing anything else -- an idea that is developed more fully in some of the other stories in the collection. However, I found the story itself to be too obvious and heavy-handed for me to enjoy it. I liked the way "The Kerastion" sketched out a culture in a few pages of spare prose -- it's more impressive for being an "unimproved" workshop story -- though I can't read much more into it than an exercise in imagining strangeness (in this case, a society that views permanent works of art as desecrations of the Mother). The remaining four stories strike me very much as a thematic group concerning individual perspective and the creation of meaning and story. In "Newton's Sleep" the character of Ike represents the danger of mechanical, hyper-rational thinking. He believes in simple facts, freedom from superstition, to the point that he seems to disapprove even of metaphor: "The light in Vermont quadrant was just the right number of degrees off vertical, Susan said -- 'It's either late morning or early afternoon, there's always time to get things done.' That was juggling a bit with reality, but not dangerously, Ike thought, and said nothing." (p.27) There's Ike, standing watch at the gates of Truth! Le Guin has said, in an interview with Larry McCaffery, "I'm rather afraid of purity in any guise. Purity doesn't seem quite human. I'd rather have things a little dirty and messy." Purity is sterility, purity can kill. I once heard the Nazi death camps described as "an incredibly efficient, spic-and-span hell". The future of Earth as described in "Newton's Sleep" can be imagined as the logical end result of self-selected enclaves repeatedly redrawing the lines and denying responsibility for what is going on "out there", denying knowledge of the other. An attitude that is carried with the few escapees to Spes, where some want to remove even the reminders of their old, dirty home. The story is rather obvious, it's true. But it has meat, and I like the connections it draws between various symptoms of an underlying cause. Le Guin describes the last three stories as "metafictions, story about story". As in "The Rock That Changed Things", perspective has a profound effect on what is called Truth. To me, the narrative function of the churten (aside from instantaneous travel) was to increase the effects of pre-existing thought patterns on perception. So in "The Shobies' Story", when the crew churten to a previously unvisited planet, their experiences differ wildly. Perhaps stress makes it worse? Stylistically the story is a mess and its ending may seem to advocate the power of "groupthink" over individual perception. But it's important to remember that the Shobies never decide upon a single, "correct" story. They "agree to disagree" about some elements of their experience (like who went down in the lander to the planet's surface); it's the weaving of the story, even with its contradictory elements, that brings them home. "Dancing to Ganam" shows what might happen when a powerfully charismatic person unbalances a crew. Interestingly, Forest and Riel break with him early on, fairly clearly because they are women (cute how Le Guin left out any mention of their sex until halfway through the story, eh?), and Dalzul and Shan are men. It's a theme that's sounded many times in the collection: women are more in tune with base reality than men are. Shan, who has been bewitched by Dalzul's illusions, begins to wake up. By the end of the story, Dalzul is all alone in his view of reality. But Aketa says that he believes Dalzul "knew what he was doing." Meaning what? That Dalzul knew he was going to die and chose his death? Perhaps that his ritual death was the inexorable last word of his life's sentence? "Another Story" is the emotional heart of the collection for me. It is longer and takes more time developing characters and settings. Superficially, it's plot is much simpler: boy leaves home; boy is emotionally crippled; magically he is given the chance to do it all over again; he returns home to his true love. But along the way we learn about the fascinating four-way marriages of O, about "thick-planning" (I love that term); about the history of churten research; and about "The Fisherman of the Inland Sea", whose story is inverted by Hideo. Rather than returning unchanged to a land where his descendants are all dead, he returns ten years older to an unchanged farm. Le Guin is very good at describing moments of utter, lonely despair. The center of this story for me is the night when Hideo is in his room at Ran'n after returning from his visit home. He tries to sleep but can't stop thinking how meaningless his life is. He begins to cry helplessly and can only bring himself out of it by imagining that he will call Isidri in the morning. But when the night has passed, he does not call her. He still denies his need for balance. Pamela Bedore asked, "I wonder how much influence Jung and post-Jungian theorists have had on her writing over the past decade or so..." I think the answer is a lot. Both Hideo and Ike are characters who have walled off parts of their own minds out of fear, and both suffer because of it. In her essay "The Child and the Shadow", Le Guin quoted Jung: " 'Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.' " She goes on to say, "The less you look at it, in other words, the stronger it grows, until it can become a menace, an intolerable load, a threat within the soul." (p.59) Hideo and Ike get another chance; Dalzul does not (nor does he want one). Whew! This message is gigantic! I think I had better send it now. I would love to read further comments on the book -- any takers? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Hooverphonic -- A New Stereophonic Sound Spectacular "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:40:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Fisherman of the Inland Sea To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Janice wrote: > But Aketa says that he > believes Dalzul "knew what he was doing." Meaning what? That Dalzul knew he > was going to die and chose his death? Perhaps that his ritual death was the > inexorable last word of his life's sentence? I keep wondering what Leguin meant by that--and I love that she doesn't solve it for the reader. > In her > essay "The Child and the Shadow", Le Guin quoted Jung: " 'Everyone carries > a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, > the blacker and denser it is.' " She goes on to say, "The less you look at > it, in other words, the stronger it grows, until it can become a menace, an > intolerable load, a threat within the soul." (p.59) Janice, please, please, can you tell me where to find this essay? Thank you so much for your "gigantic" post! I wish I could do the same, but am finishing one chapter and about to start another--on Leguin :) Think spring, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Fisherman of the Inland Sea To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Big Yellow Woman wrote: > Janice, please, please, can you tell me where to find ["The > Child and the Shadow"]? Sorry, I included the page number but forgot to include the book's name! I was referring to the 1993 trade paper edition of *The Language of the Night*, her first collection of essays, with editorial commentary by Susan Wood. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Hooverphonic -- A New Stereophonic Sound Spectacular "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:34:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Seren Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: A Fisherman of the Inland Sea (fwd) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU "Janice E. Dawley" at Mar 29, 99 11:30:28 pm > I'm a little tardy with this, but I thought I'd make a stab at *A Fisherman > of the Inland Sea* before the month is over... Hmmm....well I'm a couple of hours late, I'm afraid... > I liked the way "The Kerastion" sketched > out a culture in a few pages of spare prose -- it's more impressive for > being an "unimproved" workshop story -- though I can't read much more into > it than an exercise in imagining strangeness (in this case, a society that > views permanent works of art as desecrations of the Mother). I really like Le Guin's short sketches. She manages to get across so much information with so few words, but it doesn't *seem* crowded. > "Dancing to Ganam" shows what might happen when a powerfully charismatic > person unbalances a crew. Interestingly, Forest and Riel break with him > early on, fairly clearly because they are women (cute how Le Guin left out > any mention of their sex until halfway through the story, eh?), and Dalzul > and Shan are men. > It's a theme that's sounded many times in the collection: > women are more in tune with base reality than men are. Oh. I didn't read it that way at all - to me, it seemed clear that Forest and Riel were also seeing what they wanted to see, to an extent - they are aware of this possibility - Riel says at one point "And we may be inventing just as much of this as Dalzul. How can we be sure?", but to me the point was that, just as we *don't know* who really went down in the lander in _The Shobies' Story_, we don't know exactly what's happening here. Doesn't it strike you as rather a coincidence that Riel and Forest find that most of Ganam's women form polyandrous marriages, and a good many form lesbian group marriages? But they haven't found anything similar for men - I wonder if Shan would, if he'd been looking. Dalzul is out of step with all three of them, but that doesn't make them *right*, just because he's not. but then, this is just *my* version of reality...:) Le Guin is very good at getting you to doubt everything - maybe this is one of the things I find most SFnal about her stuff. > "Another Story" is the emotional heart of the collection for me. It is > longer and takes more time developing characters and settings. Me too. I would happily have bought the book for this story alone. > Pamela Bedore asked, "I wonder how much influence Jung and post-Jungian > theorists have had on her writing over the past decade or so..." I think > the answer is a lot. Both Hideo and Ike are characters who have walled off > parts of their own minds out of fear, and both suffer because of it. In her > essay "The Child and the Shadow", Le Guin quoted Jung: " 'Everyone carries > a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, > the blacker and denser it is.' " She goes on to say, "The less you look at > it, in other words, the stronger it grows, until it can become a menace, an > intolerable load, a threat within the soul." (p.59) Hideo and Ike get > another chance; Dalzul does not (nor does he want one). Sounds like Ged in _A Wizard of Earthsea_.... Thank you, Janice - I really enjoyed reading & responding to that post. seren ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:08:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Russ / LeGuin BDG To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >I find it interesting that Russ's novel last month on BDG generated so >much discussion, while Le Guin's generated so little. I suspect that much of the problem is that it's harder to discuss a collection of short stories. I remember a few of the stories; you remember a few of the stories; she remembers a few of the stories; there's less guaranteed overlap. When one person comments on something, she doesn't get as many takers because not as many people remember that story. At least, that's how I found it. Then, too, many people had clear memories of the simpler stories--which we seemed to find lacking. I thought it was a very mixed collection. I found that I enjoyed the writing itself far more than I usually do in science fiction; and that carried me over the bumpy parts. We've all heard the claim that "science fiction is a literature of ideas" but sometimes I really wish that SF writers would put a bit more energy into creating a literature of words... This is not to say that LeGuin didn't pack many ideas into this book. But I found them harder to discuss because there were so many pieces and I couldn't decide which one to focus on (and many people tried to talk about the book as a whole, which I found impossible). Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:06:47 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fisherman vs Female Man To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Pamela Bedore wrote: "Sorry for the length of this quotation, but I wonder if it might be interesting to interrogate our group's scanty discussion about Le Guin's book in relation to (Female Man). Perhaps *Fisherman* is merely not a very rich text? Or perhaps our reaction is related to Le Guin's brand of feminism?" I think you were right in stating that Left Hand of Darkness or The Dispossessed would have generated more discussion than Fisherman. I did like these stories, but stories are difficult to discuss as a whole. Also, you're comparing a major work by Russ with a minor one of Le Guin's. I think it was a shame that we picked this book to be the one of hers we discussed, but we're doing another one of Griffith's (first Ammonite, now Slow River). So maybe there's hope we can get one of the meatier Le Guin's later. It's been a long time since I read Left Hand, but I know The Dispossessed could generate some strong political debate. Joyce