Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:14:28 -0700 From: Bridgett Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU As always, "BDG" in the subject line denotes spoilers. Below are a few topics and questions to start this month's discussion of Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold. I know I've missed some good ones, so please feel free jump in with more kick-off questions or topics for discussion. I'm in the middle of moving across town--going a bit mad, really--but even packing boxes couldn't distract me from having long internal debates over the advisability of Uterine Replicators. Thanks for voting for this one--I'm looking forward to a great discussion! THE VORKOSIGAN SAGA Is this your first taste of the Vorkosigan universe? THE STORY What did you think of the story? Silly? Provocative? How about the ending? Is this just a gender bending, space opera version of the damsel in distress? Is it more? ETHAN How would you describe Ethan's character? In what ways did his character change throughout the story? Were the changes believable? If you were developing Ethan's character, what would you have done differently, if anything? ELLIE QUINN Commander Quinn is a reoccurring character in the Vorkosigan Saga who has both fans and detractors. What did you think of her? TERRENCE CEE Any thoughts here? ATHOS Utopia? Dystopia? How does Athos compare to speculative fiction's all-female societies? Any thoughts or speculations on the role of religion, value of parenthood, etc.? UTERINE REPLICATORS The UR was developed on Beta Colony for use in medical emergencies, but its use has become widespread in the Vorkosigan universe. In the real world, artificial gestation may soon become a reality. What is your opinion of this technology? Is it a good idea? Is it the ultimate in equitable reproduction? Is it Elitist? What about the biochemical nature of bonding and psychosocial adjustment? How about the increasing threat of environmental contaminates en utero? CULTURE AND REGULATED REPRODUCTION Is there (in the real world) a correlation between the availability of resources and the extent of reproductive regulation? What other factors might influence the extent of regulation? Though Athos is primarily an agrarian culture, its resources are limited. Does Athos fit your hypothesis? On Athos, one earns the right to reproduce by accumulating Social Duty Credits. Is this a good idea? A person with enough credits to reproduce is entitled to wear a mustache; a father wears a beard. Is this detail meaningful? Or just good world building? SPACE CULTURE AND HOMOSEXUALITY Do you think space-based culture will be more accepting of sexual and gender diversity than most existing Earth cultures? What factors come into play here? (Personally, I found the culture of homophobia on Kline Station to be a bit odd... ) OUTLANDERS Any thoughts on the Outlanders? Any "what ifs" come to mind? FINALLY... Does this novel explore gender in a meaningful way? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Downs Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU This is not my first experience with the Vorkosiverse. I am a long-time Bujold fan, starting with Barrayar when it was serialized in Analog Magazine. I own all of her books, most of them in several formats (audio, eBooks, and print). As with much of Bujold, the story of Ethan of Athos gets better with rereading, when you aren't in such a hurry to find out what happens next that you miss some of the details. I don't think anything I have read by LMB to be silly, and much of it is provocative. The ending leaves it hanging a bit in the sense that the reader isn't sure that a physical relationship between Terrence Cee and Ethan is going to happen, although it seems likely, but I think they will be stable co-parents and have whatever relationship works out naturally for them. Terrence Cee was raised as a "lab rat." He would have fewer prejudices about relationships than even galactics, who don't seem to have many, so I think a physical relationship is definitely a strong possibility. And, yes, it is a bit of gender-bending. However, it's done in such a way as to make it convincing, unlike so many books of that type. I think it's also more than that--it seemed to me to also be a commendation of men who take part in child-rearing and take it as the serious responsibility that it is. ETHAN Ethan reminds me of many of the characters played in old movies by Jimmy Stewart. Naive, but honorable. He becomes more sophisticated as the book progresses, but it's against his inclinations and he is still glad to be back home on Athos at the end. ELLIE QUINN I'm more fan than detractor. Elli is one of my favorite characters: courageous, adventurous, and a bit swashbuckling. She has a wicked sense of humor, and is very loyal to Miles, who doesn't appear in this book. TERRENCE CEE Nothing really outstanding. He was obsessed with Janine, of course, but that might have been mostly because they were all one another had. Given a life with more love and affection from a variety of sources, he probably would have been less determined to preserve her genes. ATHOS Since Athos started as a religious colony, religion would be a major factor in daily life. Obviously the religion has changed greatly from the celibate founding fathers, but the direction of the change has been to convert it from an actual monastery to a deeply religious society of men who have not sworn vows. This is somewhat different, and seems to me to be a natural evolution of the society. UTERINE REPLICATORS I think they are a great idea. They would enable people who want children but are unable to have them to do so. There would be some elitism, of course, because the technology would be expensive, but one might as well say that giving birth with medical attendance is elitist, C-sections are elitist, and incubators for premature babies are elitist because not everyone in the world can afford them. If people can afford them, and choose to make them a priority, they would become widespread and more readily available much faster than if they are looked down on as "elitist". CULTURE AND REGULATED REPRODUCTION Yes, there is a correlation between availability of resources and limiting population. The relationship goes both ways. Limiting population also means that more resources will be available. Unfortunately, if we don't do it ourselves, nature has a way of limiting the population for us. Athos' resources are limited partly because they are determined to have two responsible caregivers for each child born, as well as because they recognize how much labor must be taken out of the labor pool to care for children. I believe the Social Duty Credit method of deciding who would be a fit parent is probably a good one, although not the only possibility. I think the beard and moustache are rather like the Betan earring symbols in Bujold's other Vorkosiverse books: If a man has a moustache, he may be looking for a co-parent and/or a relationship. If he has a beard, he probably already has one, and is less likely to be interested. They would also be a status symbol for social responsibility, which was highly regarded in that culture. SPACE CULTURE AND HOMOSEXUALITY I don't think Horrible Helda was a fair example of Kline Station, nor the redneck types in the bar Ethan tried to recruit in. The bar was a bit of a surprise; but I don't suppose the percentages of homosexual orientation would be likely to increase in human beings and you will probably always find people who are looking for some minority to scapegoat for their own problems. This would mean that any minority is going to have some people prejudiced against it. Helda, however, was just a frustrated mother who sees Athos as having stolen her son and not even letting her visit him. It's easier on her self-esteem than blaming herself for her son's going there to escape her, after all. OUTLANDERS Was that the group Janos joined? I think they would be a needed escape valve from such a rigid culture. The culture needed rigidity to accomplish its goals of survival, expansion, and population increase, but not everyone in the population wants those things as their personal goal, especially when they are young. To keep them from becoming a destabilizing factor in the society, they have a place to leave it and live as they wish. FINALLY... Does this novel explore gender in a meaningful way? All the Vorkosiverse novels do. It's not their only theme by any means, but it's a factor in most of them. Gender, relationships, and parenting are as important factors in LMB's books as they are in real life, in my opinion. Mary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:56:03 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi everyone -- This was my first experience of Bujold's work. Perhaps this brands me as an elitist, but I don't expect very popular books (as measured by sales) to be well written or interesting to me. Compared to most authors I read, Bujold is a sales superstar. So I was pleasantly surprised by *Ethan of Athos*, which I thought to be a clever tale that in its own light-handed way raised some unsettling psychological and ethical questions. I don't have much time at the moment, but I thought I would start by saying that I was disturbed by the fact that on Athos, all female zygotes were thrown away. On the one hand, it seems that reproductive freedom should be as much of a right for men with uterine replicators as it is for a woman with a womb. But on the other, it is sickening to imagine these men eliminating half the human race because of their wildly misogynistic and inaccurate beliefs. It tore my heart to think that, despite her friendship with Ethan, none of Elli Quinn's many offspring would ever be a daughter. The fact that Bujold does not portray Athos as a dystopia is really interesting to me. I certainly don't think she is condoning their society or how it was formed. But what is she saying? Is there a point she is trying to make? I wonder what everyone else thinks. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Beck -- Sea Change "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:14:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Downs Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Janice D writes: > I don't have much time at the moment, but I thought I would start by saying > that I was disturbed by the fact that on Athos, all female zygotes were > thrown away. On the one hand, it seems that reproductive freedom should be > as much of a right for men with uterine replicators as it is for a woman > with a womb. But on the other, it is sickening to imagine these men > eliminating half the human race because of their wildly misogynistic and > inaccurate beliefs. It tore my heart to think that, despite her friendship > with Ethan, none of Elli Quinn's many offspring would ever be a daughter. M: I believe it was only the female gametes (X-chromosome sperm) that were discarded, which is different. Nature itself discards all the many unused sperm after each fertilization (or non-fertilization); if the Athosians wanted to sort them first and use only the ones with Y chromosomes, why shouldn't they? No ova were discarded, which is an economy not found in nature. The rest of the galaxy was already choosing the sex of their offspring, according to other books set in the Vorkosiverse. I think the real moral issue was covered when the council discussed the possibility of creating some female fetuses and harvesting ovaries from them to solve their problem of needing more ovarian cultures, then rejected the idea as unethical and appalling. Elli still had one ovary. If she wanted a daughter, she could have one any time she cared to. In later books in the series, Elli turns out to be a career-oriented woman, who won't marry the man she loves very much because it would mean (1) giving up her hopes of commanding the mercenary fleet, which are fulfilled in the later books of the series, and (2) moving to live on Barrayar, a rather backward planet (Think of the USA in the 1950s, with all its cultural restrictions on what women were capable of or "ought" to do. It was possible to get around some of the restrictions, but most women took the path of least resistance and conformed. Barrayar in the later books is becoming more *galactic,* but they're not even nearly there yet.) Elli may occasionally have faint regrets about not having any daughters, but I doubt she'll ever slow down enough to do anything about it. It's hard to see Bujold's point without reading at least some of the other books in the series. Her books do stand alone and are not dependent on having read their predecessors, but to comprehend the complexity of her world-building, a reader has to read more than one of them. Ethan of Athos is, in some ways, a digression from the Vorkosigan story, or putting it aside to write about Elli and give that character more dimension without Miles Vorkosigan taking over the book. Bujold has no intelligent alien life in her books; all the sapient races have started as human, and still are, although there have been some changes. Beta Colony, the leader in most sciences, tried to genetically engineer equality of sexes by creating a race of functional hermaphrodites. Although they never became a majority, there are still Betan herms (most of the books; Bel Thorne, a Dendarii captain, was a Betan herm who puts in its first appearance in The Warrior's Apprentice). Another early experiment with creating free-fall dwellers resulted in quaddies, a race with four arms and no legs (Falling Free, Diplomatic Immunity). I've always felt that one of her main points is that humanity is amazing in its infinite variety. And, after all, there is an Athos in the present (on a Greek island), a cluster of monasteries that do not even keep female domestic animals. The get their continuity from recruiting rather than reproducing artificially, of course, and take vows of celibacy, but they exist and flourish. http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/greece/mount_athos.html Mary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:19:41 -0500 From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 04:56 PM 4/7/2005, Janice E. Dawley wrote: >The fact that Bujold does not portray Athos as a dystopia is really >interesting to me. I certainly don't think she is condoning their society >or how it was formed. But what is she saying? Is there a point she is >trying to make? I wonder what everyone else thinks. I am a major fan of Bujold (and also interested in how academic feminist sf criticism has "canonized" certain books, but that's a side note). I read this novel and was immediately reminded of Shulamith Firestone's comment (I lost my Firestone some years ago) that if men were responsible for children, they'd be more like women! That is, a lot of what women do/are is socially constructed. The sense I have from reading sf is that when a "male only" society is set up, the stereotypically "masculine" comes into play--the testosterone driven, violent, uber-male. I think that Bujold's is a lot more likely: the misogyny of the earliest settlers has well more or less disappeared as a real emotion (Ethan's confusion when he sees a picture in his science journal which he finally realizes is of *gasp* a woman shows how those original beliefs have become more formulaic--there are no women to fear on Athos--and I know another email touched on the sex selection issue, and I agree with what she said). More money is spent on the process to get children; the military budget suffers. There are a range of human characteristics shown--but the emphasis on nurturing and raising children is fascinating. I doubt the original settlers of Athos would have been capable of thinking of that; I doubt that in any way their ideology could have been described as feminist! However, what I called Bujold's "stealth feminism" (in a paper given at ICFA some years ago) comes into play as she shows the culture having developed over centuries (my copy is at home, so I forget how many centuries it has been--four?) over time into one that has values and ideals that I don't mind calling feminist--including how the fastest way to earn social credit points is by (gasp) taking care of children! (What a concept--valuing the child care providers.) Yes, it's all male. But it's not "men" as we know them. Nor is Bujold "assigned the category" of "feminist" (and when she spoke at the session I was one, she said she was too busy being a single mother raising her children during the seventies to be a feminist in the sense of participating in the organized movements of the time). However, she did not disdain the "stealth feminist" argument I was making. Taking Ethan, raised in this culture, and putting him in the Galactic one which, I agree with the other poster as well, is a complex one (in her novels, she shows a range of planetary cultures ranging from egalitarian, Beta, to patriarchal, Barrayar, and a whole lot of other complicated ones), and then having him "rescued" from kidnapping and death by Elli, a mercenary officer and a woman, is wonderfully ironic and, for me, very much a stealth feminist commentary on gender. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:38:58 -0700 From: Yvonne Rathbone Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] A Note on the Availability of *Ethan of Athos* To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU On 3/20/05 9:01 AM, the Muses inspired Janice E. Dawley to write: > Hi everyone -- > > Having just come back from a book-buying trip to Borders, I thought I'd let > everyone know that *Ethan of Athos* is available in an omnibus edition > published by Baen called *Miles, Mystery & Mayhem*. The other contents are > *Cetaganda* and a novella called "Labyrinth". My Borders didn't have the > standalone novel in stock, but did have the omnibus. Yay! I've already > started reading... Cetaganda is another great exploration of gender roles. The aristocratic women of Cetaganda appear to be secluded and exempt from the political power of the men. But are they really powerless? Or are they some of the most powerful people in the galaxy? -Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:33:40 -0700 From: Daliel Ben Zedes Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU ***spoilers*** --- Robin Reid wrote: > ... I read > this novel and was immediately reminded of > Shulamith Firestone's comment (I > lost my Firestone some years ago) that if men > were responsible for > children, they'd be more like women! That is, > a lot of what women do/are > is socially constructed... I really liked this aspect of the book and thought that Bujold demonstrated this on Athos quite plausibly. I felt that, in many aspects, Ethan was much more feminine than masculine. But not always in a good way, particularly as opposed to Janos, who fits such a stereotypical "guy" mold - irresponsible, unfaithful, undependable. I know he's supposed to be outside of the norm of Athos, but why does Bujold pair Ethan with him? I liked Ethan's character, but I felt like him putting up with Janos kind of made him into a victim. I loved Elli's character, tho - she's just lovely. Perhaps seeing Elli balance her femininity with strength and adaptability encourages Ethan to do the same? But, then, at the end, Ethan dreads confronting Janos, and it seemed to me kind of a wimp-out that Janos has left and Ethan is relieved. That kind of puts him back into the position of a victim again. And even with Terrence Cee - Ethan takes this submissive sexual role, leaving it up to Cee. Too bad Ethan didn't take another cue from Elli and learn to embrace his sexuality. zenome@yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 07:21:05 -0600 From: PAT MATHEWS Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU From: Daliel Ben Zedes >Ethan was much more feminine than masculine. But >not always in a good way, particularly as opposed >to Janos, who fits such a stereotypical "guy" >mold - irresponsible, unfaithful, undependable. >I know he's supposed to be outside of the norm of >Athos, but why does Bujold pair Ethan with him? >I liked Ethan's character, but I felt like him >putting up with Janos kind of made him into a >victim. I can answer that. The "Lady and the Tramp" marriage is so commonplace every Hollywood romantic comedy uses it. You have a nice, responsible stay-at-home partner matched with a happy-go-lucky, irresponsible one, and hopefully they are good for each other. Another pattern is "Beauty and the Beast". >Too bad Ethan didn't take another cue from Elli >and learn to embrace his sexuality. Excuse me? He has! His quiet way of going about things IS his way and his sexuality! Not everyone is sexually aggressive, and Ethan's way fits his character. He's not going to push Terrence; he's too mature for that. He's going to give Terrence time to grow and learn and make up his own mind. That's because Ethan is an adult, a man, not a boy. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 08:56:07 -0500 From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi all, >>Too bad Ethan didn't take another cue from Elli >>and learn to embrace his sexuality. > > Excuse me? He has! His quiet way of going about things IS his way and his > sexuality! Not everyone is sexually aggressive, and Ethan's way fits his > character. He's not going to push Terrence; he's too mature for that. He's > going to give Terrence time to grow and learn and make up his own mind. > That's because Ethan is an adult, a man, not a boy. I thought the scenario raised some interesting questions about sexuality. Apparently the men who founded Athos did so because they wanted to protect themselves from women, who drive men crazy, impairing their brain function and all. It wasn't because they were gay, but rather the opposite, in the presence of females they felt unable to think "properly"; they had to protect and purify themselves from women. Yet, the society has clearly embraces homosexuality. Which implies that one is not born gay, or perhaps that some people might be born gay, but a lot of people can (and will) express their sexuality with whatever happens to be available. The fact that Ethan didn't end up sleeping with Elli had more to do with it being an unthinkable sin and corruption than him not finding her sexually attractive goes even further in suggesting that Ethan wasn't gay, but that he practiced homosexuality because that was what you do on Athos. Similarly, the idea that Terrence could switch from being totally devoted to his wife, to being a sexual partner for Ethan. I tend to agree with this notion of sexuality (that we are capable of a lot more diversity than most of us are willing to practice) while still embracing that some of us are definitely slanted towards homo- or hetero- sexuality. I do think that Ethan's reaction to Janos came out of a position of non-judgementalism and quietism. Although he has a veneer of judgementalism, mostly when he repeats the assumptions of his culture, he is remarkably non-judgemental when it comes to personal relations. Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:24:10 -0500 From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi all, Someone mentioned a stealth feminist commentary. This struck me very strongly. Perhaps because of my background -- I don't know how much you all might be aware of the recent controversy around a muslim women leading the communal services in NY. Anyway, a lot of traditionalist muslims were up in arms that a woman would deliver the sermon and lead the prayers. THE most cited reasons was right out of the pages of the founding fathers of Athos -- men around women cannot control his arousal, he'll be distracted by her voice, by her bending over in prayer, how can a man be expected to concentrate on his prayers while rubbing shoulders with women, etc, etc, ad nauseam. Ethan parrots these same notions, phrased in a only slightly more outlandish manner -- women have a mystical power to disrupt men's brain power. Same stuff. That Ethan has grown up with these notions, and yet does not go crazy, remains quite sane and logical, does not start screwing every woman in sight, and resists the charms of Elli, who is stunningly beautiful, who is his co-conspirator and who appears to be willing on various occasions is a pretty powerful commentary on the fact that such notions are bunk. Pamela ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:47:46 -0600 From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ethan of Athos as a stand alone To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mary wrote: > It's hard to see Bujold's point without reading at least some of the other > books in the series. Her books do stand alone and are not dependent on > having read their predecessors, but to comprehend the complexity of her > world-building, a reader has to read more than one of them. Ethan of Athos > is, in some ways, a digression from the Vorkosigan story, or putting it > aside to write about Elli and give that character more dimension without > Miles Vorkosigan taking over the book. Mary: I'm really glad that you pointed this out because I was struggling with the seeming superficiality of this novel. As a stand alone it felt like a paper mache construct with many layers missing. This reaffirms the value of group discussion! Thanks, Angela ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 08:59:27 -0700 From: Yvonne Rathbone Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU On 4/9/05 7:24 AM, the Muses inspired Pamela Taylor to write: > That Ethan has grown up with these notions, and yet does not go crazy, > remains quite sane and logical, does not start screwing every woman in > sight, and resists the charms of Elli, who is stunningly beautiful, who is > his co-conspirator and who appears to be willing on various occasions is a > pretty powerful commentary on the fact that such notions are bunk. What would it be like to be two totally different people depending on whether members of a particular group are present? When they're not around, you can think of interesting things, explore spiritual matters, accomplish things. When they're there, all you can do is think of fucking. I think it's pretty dismissive to say such notions are all bunk. This is a real experience for many men, or more probably an adolescent phenomenon turned into an obsession turned into a group identity. But it's a real enough experience that some men that they go out of their way to find solutions to it. Historically, the solutions men have found have been easy for them, incredibly hard for women. And men, whether or not they feel this "distraction" have capitalized on the solutions to gain power. And women shouldn't have to shoulder the burden for men in this way. It's much easier for modern feminisms to dismiss this experience or equate having it with being sub-human. But I don't think real solutions can afford this kind of easiness. It's the same easiness that brought the original, oppressive solutions. -Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:54:04 -0700 From: Rain Donaldson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi all, I've read everything I can find by Bujold. In fact I first read Ethan of Athos back in the late 80's. The homophobia on the station felt natural and inevitable the first time I read the book, but now it feels excessive and unbelievable in a spacefaring future. That says more about how I and the culture around me have changed then about the book. I'm fond of Quinn. I'm especially pleased that despite a level of fondness between her and Ethan that they didn't have any kind of romantic or sexual relationship. That would have felt wrong. I like Terrance. He starts the story trapped on a number of levels by his pursuers, by his devotion, and even by his powers. At the end of the story, while not independent which would have been a stretch, he has placed himself under Ethan's protection and found at least some room to grow and develop. I think the culture of Athos probably seems to work better because the book isn't examining it directly. Ethan does an excellent job of speaking for that culture, but he seems exceptionally flexible. I suspect that anyone strongly predisposed to only heterosexuality on Athos ends up living a pretty celibate existence. Ethan did mention that some took that option. I wonder how someone predisposed to transsexuality would turn out on Athos. I suspect that they would probably fit in well enough in terms of gendered behaviors, but have serious issues with bodily comfort and might seek out some form of castration to alleviate part of the problem. Some of the cracks in Athosian society do show. Inevitably they are dependant on the females who provide the ovarian cultures which allow them to reproduce. I do think that if the homophobia we saw on the station was that common that they would have had a much higher level of recruitment than they are said to have. In particular I find myself concerned with the way all contact is cut off between Athosian immigrants and women outside. The story of Helda, who couldn't reach her son on Athos, could have been far more troublesome if instead of losing an adult son she had lost a child taken there by a father or other male relative. I do like that Athos values all forms of labor in their economy especially parenting. It does commercialize things a bit, but it remains clear that children are valued as more than just an economic transaction. I also found the ending interesting if troubling. For all of his relative conservatism, in the end Ethan takes an action that will inevitably destroy the culture of his homeworld. You can argue that a culture of telepaths would be an improvement, but it will be unquestionably very very different whatever it is. And Ethan makes this decision by himself for every single member of his world/extended family. It is an amazingly patriarchal act. Athos will change drastically and indeed live or die because of Ethan's decision. Thanks, Lorrraine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:35:09 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG -- Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 10:14 AM 2005-04-08 -0400, Mary Downs wrote: >I believe it was only the female gametes (X-chromosome sperm) that were >discarded, which is different. Yes, I realized that when I went back to check the reference. >The rest of the galaxy was already choosing the sex of their offspring, >according to other books set in the Vorkosiverse. But this is the crux of the issue for me. Right here on Earth we are coming to a time when selection of a baby's sex may soon become commonplace. In some societies it is already true that the proportion of male to female babies is skewed because of infanticide, preferential feeding and care, etc. Why? Because male babies are often valued more than female babies. This is a symptom of the sexist world we live in. I find it very troubling. The fact that the rest of Bujold's universe is already doing it doesn't make it less troubling to me in the case of Athos, where cultural isolation and indoctrination from birth guarantee that no one on the planet will *ever* want to have a female child. It may seem to be a minor point, but I think it significant that having female children is possible on Athos. It's just that no one chooses to do so. This makes the book different from just about every all-female society I've encountered in fiction. In *Ammonite*, *The Female Man*, *Motherlines*, and *Herland*, boys are not deliberately eliminated. They are just not possible, for whatever reason. My guess is that Bujold chose her approach thoughtfully. I'm interested, so I'm trying to tease out why she did it this way. In the afterword to my omnibus edition, she says she chose the monastery as her model for a successful all-male society (she rejected armies and prisons as dysfunctional). I didn't realize that there was a real Athos (thanks, Mary). A significant difference between a real-world monastery and the fictional Athos, however, is that people *choose* to enter a monastery rather than being born into it. They have some perspective about what else is possible. A child born on Athos has no idea what the rest of the galaxy is like and because of strict censorship and societal control is not allowed the option of finding out. This is an approach that I associate with brainwashing cults and totalitarian regimes. (And, I have to admit, Le Guin's Anarres in *The Dispossessed*, which I admire in a number of ways.) Athos does have a lot going for it. As others have pointed out, children really are the central concern of their society. From the example of Ethan, it seems that those children come out pretty well. And it's obvious that the society has already changed quite a bit since it was founded. I'm assuming that the monks who settled on Athos would have been shocked and appalled at the thought of homosexual relations between their descendants. >Elli still had one ovary. If she wanted a daughter, she could have one any >time she cared to. While this is true, it doesn't really address what troubles me, which is that she *will* be a parent many times over because of her gift to Ethan and because of his society's irrational and ignorant prejudice against women, none of those children will ever be a daughter. From Elli's comments to Ethan, it's clear she's a little sad at the thought. Not sad enough to refuse his request, or to make room in her life for hands-on parenting, but... *I* still find it poignant. To get back to the question of what the author means by all this... One of her points seems to be that change is inevitable. No matter how Athos was founded, or what its policies, it can't be all bad and it's possible for it to improve. She also says in her afterword, "No one can be guilty of their own birth, no matter what form it takes." In all three of the works in my omnibus (*Ethan*, *Cetaganda* and "Labyrinth") there are examples of genetically engineered people who are considered tainted freaks by many of those around them. And of course there is Miles, whose physical damage marks him as "unclean" on his own planet, Barrayar. In each case, Bujold shows these people to be talented and sympathetic characters who just need to find their niche. Sometimes that means leaving their society. Sometimes it means returning to it. Sometimes it requires a helping hand or a lot of determination. But it is usually possible. I want to add, though, that even if the genetically engineered characters are not "guilty of their own birth", Bujold doesn't really portray genetic experimentation as an ethical activity. The Baraputra lab folks really don't come off well. I really like how complexly Bujold has fit this all together. I don't like the term "stealth feminism", because it implies that feminism is normally heavy-handed and obvious. I don't think that's true. From what I have read, I feel comfortable calling Bujold's work feminist in a bedrock, humanist way. I'll definitely be reading more of her work. I have already bought another omnibus, *Young Miles*, and look forward to digging into it. Thanks for nominating *Ethan of Athos*, Bridgett! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Beck -- Sea Change "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 16:40:57 -0400 From: April Goodwin-Smith Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Spoilers for Ethan of Athos. 1 2 3 4 5 End of Spoiler Space Hi all, I've been lurking for a number of years. I must admit that I like this style of Science Fiction book - space ports, space stations in the middle of nowhere because they are at the crossroads of everywhere for trading, ersatz military organization, the "vacuum of space" as a constant threat, etc, etc. Usually what's going on is the observation of people under constraints, which technically could happen anywhere, but one of the expectations is that some of the people met will have social customs that are thought experiments of the author. Sometimes these customs are just window dressing to the space opera, and sometimes they are one of the focuses of the tale. I perfectly understand the objection that the "science" in this kind of book borders on magic - and I not only don't care, I think that complaint misses the point. Yeah, we currently can't travel faster than the speed of light. But we've only been flying for a little over a hundred years, and so my suspension of disbelief can swallow space travel a lot easier than it can people being more heroic than they normally are. I think we're more likely to solve problems with things than with people. I don't believe in Athos - there is naughtiness but no criminality, and people being people (whether cloistered from the temptation or annoyance of the gender they are not, or not), I don't believe this. In fact, this has the feel of the idealized "Captains of Industry" or "Hygiene and Her Sisters Thrift and Economy" posters of the past showing very muscley people who are very clean and serene, which is a complaint that can be made against Gilman, and other utopia-ists (utopists? whatever). However, we are mostly seeing Athos through Ethan's eyes, and he seems to be a very sheltered conservative who has found it easy to conform - after all, he does manage to idolize Janos, and later Terrance Cee. He may indeed view his world this way, and any evidence he encounters that contradicts this can easily be forgotten as rare aberrations. I know people who do this about this world. I also like that Athos just forms the background of one of the characters, and that we learn about Athos as we explore the puzzle of the intrigue/adventure on the station. And I like that the solution to the puzzle is the rage-fueled impulse of a single person, which has huge unpredictable consequences on people she will never meet. This, I think, is one of the things that Bujold is exploring in the book. The Founding Fathers of Athos, in a effort to control themselves and others (women) around them, create a world where people's options are constrained by the choices made by people who didn't consult them. This is also true of the people who created Terrance Cee and Janine. It is true of Terrance Cee when he tries to save what he can of Janine. And it is again true of Ethan and Terrance when they determine to change Athos into a race of telepaths. So, the question really might be -since everyone is making choices for other people without their consent, what makes the Founding Fathers' choice unusual or troublesome? Although this book is light in tone, I enjoy it. People in it, regardless of their thought-experiment social customs, behave the way we expect people to do. I expect that a woman raised on a space station would feel anxious about windows. I expect that a man raised to believe that women are inherently dangerous to men would interpret evidence to the contrary as proof that most of the women he meets are atypical, and that he is able to deal with the others because of the excellent protective training he has received. I would expect a woman with a controlling nature to enter a field where she can control everything in her environment, and for her to be completely baffled by her inability to control her children (I've met parents like that), and if her child moved beyond her reach, I would expect her to be overwhelmingly angry about it. I would be interested to consider what happens when an Athosian wants to emigrated from Athos. Are they permitted? If they are technically permitted, is the cost prohibitive (after all, the cost of raising them to adulthood has already been calculated)? If they leave, are they allowed to return? Are they allowed to communicate with their parent? Etc etc. Which just demonstrates how seriously I am willing to consider this is interesting thought-experiment. One last thought about the science in Ethan of Athos: I'm certainly not boggled by the idea of a uterine replicator - but I suspect that if something as complicated as a womb has been duplicated, then it would probably also be possible to create the analogue of an ovum from sperm and plain human cells. However, the issue of genetic diversity would still encourage the colony to seek additional material, and ovaries might still be the most economical way to do so. But, I think one without the other is less likely than both together. April. "Things that try to look like things, often do look more like things than things. Well known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax. (Pratchett 1988) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:03:36 -0500 From: Pamela Taylor Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi Yvonne, It seems to me that it is a very different thing to acknowledge that some men, particularly in their young adult years, have issues surrounding sexuality and it is quite another to say that all men will be driven insane or have their natural, logical though processes disrupted by any woman, which is what the founders of Athos (and the folks who want to keep women out of leadership in the mosques) were saying as a reason why they had to segregate away from all women. The former is true, and can be handled in a variety of ways. The latter is patently false. It seems to me that Bujold is poking at that notion pretty strongly in the way Ethan reacts to the various women he meets. Also, I think you overstate your case -- I find it hard to believe that any man is unable to think of anything but fucking when women are in a room (or vice versa). Perhaps if Halle Barry or Brittney Spears is in the room -- but a middle aged (or older woman) particularly if she is heavy, bookish or geeky? Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yvonne Rathbone" To: Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold > What would it be like to be two totally different people depending on > whether members of a particular group are present? When they're not around, > you can think of interesting things, explore spiritual matters, accomplish > things. When they're there, all you can do is think of fucking. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:23:50 -0700 From: Yvonne Rathbone Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU On 4/9/05 4:03 PM, the Muses inspired Pamela Taylor to write: > Also, I think you overstate your case -- I find it hard to believe that any > man is unable to think of anything but fucking when women are in a room (or > vice versa). Perhaps if Halle Barry or Brittney Spears is in the room -- but > a middle aged (or older woman) particularly if she is heavy, bookish or > geeky? For the record, regardless of whether even a majority of men have this "affliction," we are agreed that the ways men have tried to solve the problem so far are wrong. As to overstating my case about how men respond to women, I don't think I am. But let me make my case clear. From what I can tell, men's culture is very repressive, with the threat of being anally raped or at least beaten up constantly used in often subtle ways to make men conform. And frankly, I have found very few men who are willing to buck the system in any kind of substantial way. In cultures where the expectation is that men can't think around women, I can imagine that this does become the actual case for a significant minority of men and that the vast majority of men in these cultures will feel compelled to act like it's true. I have had several experience of trying to talk with Muslim men where it was clear they were highly uncomfortable with me. They could not really pay attention to what I was saying, giggle a lot, blushed, looked everywhere but at me. And yet they tried to be polite. This was explained to me by another Muslim man as being because I was a woman. I would say that most Muslim men I've encountered did not have this problem, but if what I've experienced is at all representative, then the problem does exist as a reality. (And I am no Halle Barry.) Frankly, I think men who can't think around women should be treated as incompetent. And if the poor souls can overcome their problem, they need to be attended to by the state. I can't consider anyone an adult with all the rights and privileges of an adult, who can't think when around half the human race. Still, this doesn't mean some men aren't so afflicted. -Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Downs Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU April writes: > One last thought about the science in Ethan of Athos: > I'm certainly not boggled by the idea of a uterine > replicator - but I suspect that if something as > complicated as a womb has been duplicated, then it > would probably also be possible to create the analogue > of an ovum from sperm and plain human cells. However, > the issue of genetic diversity would still encourage > the colony to seek additional material, and ovaries > might still be the most economical way to do so. But, > I think one without the other is less likely than both > together. M: Vorkoverse information: It is possible on Beta Colony, at least, because Miles' mother discusses it in, I think, _Barrayar_. However, it's obviously not technology available everywhere, and Athos is somewhat behind technologically. However, there would be less genetic diversity that way, and I think you're right about ovaries being the simplest and cheapest way to go. Another point--people who haven't read the rest of the books may not realize that Elli is in love with Miles at the time of _Ethan of Athos_, and would have been very unlikely to have an affair with anyone else. Mary ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:01:21 -0700 From: Yvonne Rathbone Subject: [*FSFFU*] Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU On 4/10/05 3:02 PM, the Muses inspired Mary Downs to write: > Another point--people who haven't read the rest of the books may not realize > that Elli is in love with Miles at the time of _Ethan of Athos_, and would > have been very unlikely to have an affair with anyone else. I'm not sure about that. She is in love with him, but she's also a spacer. There are plenty of examples in the Vorkosigan series of spacers having open relationships. -Yvonne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Downs Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ethan of Athos To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In a message dated 4/11/2005 1:18:26 A.M. EDT, Yvonne Rathbone writes: > I'm not sure about that. She is in love with him, but she's also a spacer. > There are plenty of examples in the Vorkosigan series of spacers having open > relationships. M: I forget which book it is, but she tells him in one of the later books that she hasn't had any other relationships since they met--but before that, it was a different Quinn. A little background that is mentioned briefly in _Ethan of Athos_--Elli had her face burned off in battle shortly after she and Miles met (in _The Warrior's Apprentice_). She comments once in _Brothers in Arms_ that Miles had known her when she had her old face, no face, and the new face (like her old one, only more beautiful, which she and Miles were discussing having been a mistake for someone on the command track), and to him it had always been the same face. Mary