Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:34:21 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: [*FSFFU*] joining in temporarily To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Maryelizabeth (hi, Maryelizabeth!) told me that this list would be discussing my novel _Brown Girl in the Ring_ early this year. She asked if I'd like to be present for the discussion. So here, with one reservation, I am. My reservation is that I have a scant month before my next mss. _Midnight Robber_ is due at the publisher, and I'm still writing furiously. I shouldn't have time for breakfast, much less e-mail. So I'll not be able to do a lot of posting, but I'll be taking part as I can. -nalo hopkinson http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:39:52 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Greetings in 1999!!!! Guess we are all recovering, or battening down the hatches. So I'll jump in on Brown Girl in the Ring. Here in cold cold New England I made a nest on the couch yesterday with the catboys and the dog and we started Brown Girl... and didn't stop until it was done. Needless to say -- truly enjoyed this! Loved lots of things about it. May be an odd word to attach to it, and not meant as a pun, but I was charmed by the novel. Charmed. I liked the way such a horrid world had good things in it -- good people, good ideas. Not sentimental hope but people strength of character, people working. Ti-Jeanne is delightful. Sometimes you want to smack her upside the head. I liked the pay-off, too. Great scene when Ti-Jeanne finally calls her powers in! I couldn't read fast enough. The jujus all worked for me, too. Looking forward to the next Nalo Hopkinson. best wishes phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:20:07 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >From: Phoebe Wray >Subject: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Greetings in 1999!!!! Guess we are all recovering, or battening down the >hatches. NH: Best in 99 to all from Toronto. Defintely battening down here. First snow storm of the year. Traffic's pulling to a halt and it's supposed to become an ice storm by tonight. Whee. >Here in cold cold New England NH: Ah, same weather zone, isn't it? So you know what I mean. > truly enjoyed this! Loved lots of things about it. >May be an odd word to attach to it, and not meant as a pun, but I was charmed by the novel. Charmed. NH: Thank you. I'm glad you liked it. >Ti-Jeanne is delightful. Sometimes you want to smack her upside the head. NH: Yes, that's what I intended. It's sometimes backfired with some readers though. Charles De Lint said that on first reading he just found her immature and irritating. But he got behind it on re-read. I dunno; she's somewhere between 18 and 20-ish and she's struggling to become self-individuated. Did a lot of people find it made her seem way self-absorbed? >Great scene when Ti-Jeanne finally calls her powers in! I couldn't read fast >enough. NH: I wrote that scene at a dead run, a few days before the deadline for the Warner competition. At that point, I had no idea how I was going to get Ti-Jeanne out of that mess. It's one of my favourites. I think because of my notion that the CN Tower, that humongous identifying mark that looms over all Toronto, would be the conduit for power in a Shango ritual. >The jujus all worked for me, too. NH: I once stumbled onto a discussion on orisha.net, where someone who actually does practise orisha traditions had read the novel. He liked it, but was irritated by the way I'd blended traditions. It'd be kind of like smushing together Anglicism and Catholicism, and perhaps even Judaism and Islam. Belief systems with similar roots and origins, but by no means the same. I did it partly because I was trying to talk about how much Afro-Caribbean history has involved taking a bunch of disparate elements and synthesizing them into something new. Thanks, Phoebe. How about the dialogue? Reactions to the creole? -nalo http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:55:02 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/2/99 9:20:49 PM, Nalo wrote: <> I got that part. Not an expert here, but have looked into the Orisha beliefs, and know a few practicioners. Seems to me it IS a bit eclectic. That part didn't bother me. I loved the "practicality" of the Powers. That seemed dead-on right to me; the immediacy of their presence, and the trickster-ness. The subsitutions of ritual stuff (cigarette for cigar). That's how it really works, I think. Dialogue seemed cool. I don't usually like dialects, but it worked for me. I suppose if I have any caveat it would be that Rudy, finally, didn't live up to the promise of his first scene. He was despicable, and I guess I came to understand him a little, but he was always a wraith in my mind; never really saw him clearly. Maybe that was by design? His story, of how he came to dare to take the left hand path should have made more crack somehow. I wish I could be clearer. I'll reread. But it's a piddlin' thing. I love what you said about not knowing how the scene was going to happen. That's the best -- when the characters just take over and rock. There was a whole lot of pay-off: licking the rice and licking the blood, the cleverness of the street kids who appeared so hostile at first, and Emily. She hurt my heart. Just a terrific book. Write more! best, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I had a hard time with it at first, when I tried to read it word for word. I found I was concentrating on it too much. Once I relaxed, and went with the flow, I found it came easily, and I could think in creole. I took my time reading this book and I really almost "lived it". I was easily able to visualize the settings, and the characters became very familiar to me. I haven't enjoyed a book this much in a long time!!! Looking forward to your next book. Terri Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > How about the dialogue? Reactions to the creole? > > -nalo > > http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/ > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:36:40 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl (spoilers) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Received: from Zozie@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 9IVSa04297 for > ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:55:02 - > >In a message dated 1/2/99 9:20:49 PM, Nalo wrote: > ><history has involved taking a bunch of disparate elements and synthesizing>them into something new. And Phoebe replied: >I got that part. Not an expert here, but have looked into the Orisha beliefs, >and know a few practicioners. Seems to me it IS a bit eclectic. That part >didn't bother me. I loved the "practicality" of the Powers. That seemed >dead-on right to me; the immediacy of their presence, and the trickster-ness. >The subsitutions of ritual stuff (cigarette for cigar). That's how it really >works, I think. NH: That's what struck me too when I began researching it; in many ways, it is a very practical system, and you use what you have. I liked too that the orishas definitely have their own personalities. Oshun likes honey, but if you offer it to her you have to taste it first, because someone tried to feed her poisoned honey once. And I was really struck by the tricksterish-ness of the deity/ies that are variously named Eshu, Legbara, Ellegua, Legba, Guede, Baron Samedi, etc. They are in charge of any crossroads, real and metaphorical; particularly the crossing from life into death and vice versa. That means they can go anywhere. And they are particularly protective of very young children and very old people, since they are on the cusp of that crossroads between life and death. They have pretty extreme senses of humour, as tricksters do--as I guess people can develop if they live constantly with life-and-death issues. It was fun to try to depict a deity like that. > >Dialogue seemed cool. I don't usually like dialects, but it worked for me. NH: I'm glad. It's something with which I'm struggling. >I suppose if I have any caveat it would be that Rudy, finally, didn't live up >to the promise of his first scene. He was despicable, and I guess I came to >understand him a little, but he was always a wraith in my mind; never really >saw him clearly. Maybe that was by design? NH: No, it wasn't. I could have characterised him better, now that I look back on the novel. I tried to have him tell his story in one short scene, which gave the background, but he remained more two-dimensional than I would have wanted. In my mind I see fairly clearly the frustration and sense of powerlessness that led him to the notion that he should reclaim power in the world by any means possible. But I don't think I translated that to the paper as well as I would have wanted. >I love what you said about not knowing how the scene was going to happen. >That's the best -- when the characters just take over and rock. NH: Lord, sometimes I wish they'd do it more often! And no, I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen when I started writing the scene. I knew that Ti-Jeanne would use the CN Tower as a poteau-mitan (centre pole) through which she would contact the loas (the irony is that the CN Tower is actually a humongous functioning radio tower). I knew the powers would help her somehow. But I had no clue how. They mostly act through other people or through natural phenomena, so whatever happened had to be through those agencies. I had to visit the CN Tower--and man, I *hated* being in a windowed room 1800 feet in the air--and I had to collect data on how it was constructed. There are the most frightful pictures of construction workers operating on this 1800 foot tall skeleton building, hammering in nails on scaffoldings hung out over nothing. The CN Tower does get struck by lightning, it's a magnificent sight. But it's very well grounded, it's highly unlikely for a lightning strike to do any damage, much less put cracks in the structure. That stumped me for awhile, until I though, but this is *supernatural* lightning. :) >There was a whole lot of pay-off: licking the rice and licking the blood, NH: That notion of the ghost who can get fascinated and trapped by and endlessly repetitive task occurs in a lot of folklore. Tim Powers uses it some in _Expiration Date._ I remember hearing a Louisiana storyteller describe the rugaroo, which is a type of ghost you can stop by throwing down matches. It tries to count them but being dead, can only remember a few numbers and so gets trapped within the task. 'Rugaroo' sounds like French creole for 'loup garou' (werewolf). In Trinidad they say 'lagahoo.' It's a different creature, but it's cool that the words are there in both cultures. -nalo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:53:01 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl (spoilers) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU This is fun, Nalo!!! Many thanks! phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:14:50 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl In the Ring To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Being severely linguistically challenged, I have to say I had a trouble with the Creole. I know a little Spanish, a few nouns and verbs I kind of mix and match to try to limp through an interview, so I was taken aback by language in Brown Girl. I understood the words, but the syntax was, from my very parochial view, so bizarre that I kept getting caught up in the sentences, wanting to show them to people, instead of flowing with the story. I think that helped the ambiance: Toronto in shambles, beautiful homes deserted or surrounded by stinking waste, children living in subway tunnels -- it helped to have language to take me away from my comfortable life to a world changed in fundamental ways. Favorites in the book: Ti-Jeanne, a typical young adult in many ways, obsessed with a man no good for her, resentful of her grandmother's control and guidance and uninterested in her grandmother's serious work, very unsure of her mothering, needing assistance to connect to this baby and having no serenity to do so, full of undiscovered power which I was thrilled to have her discover. I loved her intelligence. Gros-Jeanne: a healer, also full of power, wanting to guide and protect her family and knowing the limitations of her power. I liked her strong sexuality, it's not something I would have expected from a similar character in a different novel. Mi-Jeanne: What a sad story, a young girl again resentful of her mother's guidance and protection (and her sexuality) tries to throw off that control and goes to live with her father for whom she feels love, and a protective urge and is crushed so horribly. The ambulance core: It reminded me of Ray Bradbury's Firemen, take people whom we all relate to in one way and turn them completely around. I imagine paramedics of today might envy to some degree their armor and safety. They were a great visual treat. The various gods especially the god of disease: Yuck, again though a great visual idea. The rousing revenge of Ti-Jeanne: what a great and memorable scene. Fun, scary, sickening, glorious, just about perfect as far as I could see. One thing I absolutely hated in the book: The detailed description of torture, flaying a person alive. As far as I'm concerned, such description is never necessary. OK, I get the idea that the author didn't want to describe Tony as completely worthless. If I was completely disgusted, revolted and terrified just by reading the description I should have a little empathy for Tony who only killed the grandmother because he had been forced to see the torture. I get it, I just hated it. Torture can be described obliquely and have enough effect without terrorizing the reader by involving her so completely in the pain (or worse, giving really despicable people new ideas). Rather than ending on that note, here's some humor that applies adventures in new languages: Humor is healthy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Joe Lex" Subject: Fractured Foreignisms A New York magazine recently ran a contest for people with silver tongues and a command of foreign languages. The rules were to take any well-known phrase in a foreign language, change just a single letter, and then provide a definition for the new expression. Here are some of the winners: HARLEZ VOUS FRANCAIS?: Can you drive a French motorcycle? IDIOS AMIGOS: We're wild and crazy guys. COGITO, EGGO SUM: I think. Therefore, I am a waffle. RIGOR MORRIS: The cat is dead. REPONDEZ S'IL VOUS PLAID: Honk if you are Scottish. QUE SERA SERF: Life is feudal. LE ROI EST MORT. JIVE LE ROI: The king is dead. No kidding. POSH MORTEM: Death styles of the rich and famous. VENI, VIPI, VICI: I came. I am a very important person. I conquered. PRO BOZO PUBLICO: Support your local clown. MONAGE A TROIS: I am three years old. FELIX NAVIDAD: Our cat has a boat. HASTE CUISINE: Fast French food. VENI, VIDI, VICE: I came, I saw, I partied. QUIP PRO QUO: A fast retort. ALOHA OY: Love, greetings and farewell from such a pain you should never know. MAZEL TON: Tons of good luck. APRES MOE LE DELUGE: Curly and Larry got wet. PORTE-KOCHERE: Sacramental wine. ICH LIBERICH: I'm really crazy about having dough. FUI GENERIS: What's mine is mine. EX POST FUCTO: Lost in the mail VISA LA FRANCE: Don't leave your chateau without it. CA VA SANS DIRT: And that's not gossip. BUN JOUR: The daily special at the bakery. BAN JOUR: The daily special of the League of Decency. BEN JOUR: Charlton Heston's cousin. BIN JOUR: A special at the thrift shop. BONE JOUR: A special at the meat market. AH, MON CHAR: What you say after you burn up the wife you don't want anymore (which returns to the discussion of the oppression of women that this is included as humor) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:17:09 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: BROWN GIRL scattershot comments To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I also found the dialect flowed once I relaxed and stopped sort of battling with it with my eye. I liked Ti-Jeanne's faults of youth, and I thought Nalo was particularly brave in having her be uncomfortable in her mothering role, rather than behaving as though the act of reproduction automatically would bestow a nurturing nature upon one. I thought the coincidence of Gros-Jeanne's being the body match was a bit much, but forgivable in such a short work. This is not a book which fits easily into one category -- Science Fiction, Fantasy or Horror. It certainly has elements of all three. Wondering if this set comfortably with others? Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:03:24 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I certainly enjoyed our January discussion book, _Brown Girl in the Ring_ by Nalo Hopkinson. It was a little too gory for me, but the story overall was like a breath of fresh air with vibrant characters and a tight, fast-paced story. Note: I haven't had a chance yet to read any of the articles from Kathleen's biblio list (I will as soon as I get back to a fast net connection), so any opinions here are my own. I really got into enjoying the story and it wasn't until later that I thought about comparing it to previous discussion books. It's very interesting to compare the underlying culture and religion in Brown Girl to the Sparrow (christianity and the catholic church) and Mists of Avalon (celtic/pagan religion). The only other sf/f book that that I know of mentions voudou even briefly is _Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh. In that story, the voudou ritual seemed slightly sinister and certainly tangential. In Brown Girl, the religion is presented front and center, as real and accessible, complex and mysterious. We even get to meet all the main Orishas, and with our protagonist come eventually to laugh at their jokes. Do you know of any other fantasy or sf stories set in this religion of the African diaspora? The first time I was exposed to traditional African drumming and dancing, it made all other folk dancing and music seem anemic to me. In a similar way, this story seemed so vibrant and so real, despite the dystopian future and fantasy aspects. Did you feel this way? I am by no means an expert in this area, just a fan who would like to see more of this wonderful culture. Unlike the Sparrow, in Brown Girl we find a religion where there's a personal relationship with the Orishas. None of this wondering all your life if God even exists... you can even know which Orisha you "belong to". There's still a sense of ambiguity about good vs. evil, we don't see the Orishas come in to act on behalf of the human characters until the very end. But they're obviously present, and they're watching and they have opinions about human affairs. In another BDG reference, compare TiJeanne's illogical and dangerous love for her guy (mirrored by her grandmother's fatal attraction) to the Snow Queen romance between Moon and Sparks. In this case, was it the power of love, a fatal flaw, or the manipulations of the orishas to contrive to bring her to bring down her grandfather? I thought the relationships between TiJeanne and her grandmother and eventually her mother were quite believable and well done. Some of the other characters, while intriguing, were more sketches than real characters. I would love to see the woman with the feral child gang in her own story, for example. One final question to kick things off. Did you believe the bad guy could do such terrible things to his daughter and granddaughter? I would have preferred to see a little more insight into whatever made him so evil. Surely he had some redeeming qualities that attracted the grandmother in the first place. That's enough of my questions for now. I look forward to hearing what you thought of the book! Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:22:29 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU So fabulous to see all this discussion already! Remember there's no need to put spoiler warnings during this discussion. As Maryelizabeth mentions, I had trouble figuring out how this fit into the traditional sf or fantasy pigeonholes. We had a fractious discussion awhile ago about "magic realism" which is a label I think that has been applied to this book. It seems to me more that this book does a healthy redefinition of "fantasy", a welcome change from the celtic-tinged world of elves and orcs. I'm so glad to see you jumping in, Nalo. And thank you so much for the gift of this story, and the opportunity to bring this culture to a wider audience. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:53:22 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >The only other sf/f book that that I know of >mentions voudou even briefly is _Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh. So does Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ Lesley lesleyah@primex.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Allen Briggs Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Voudou in SF/F To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >The only other sf/f book that that I know of > >mentions voudou even briefly is _Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh. > So does Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ A couple of others that aren't by female authors: _Queen of Angels_ by Greg Bear (which does have a female protagonist), and at least one of William Gibson's cyberpunk novels (I get them confused with one another, but I think _Count Zero_ is what I'm thinking of). Perhaps cyberpunk is pulled toward it as it seems to grow and merge and synthesize different elements from different sources--kind of like hardware and software systems. ;-) -allen -- Allen Briggs - briggs@ninthwonder.com Try free *nix: http://www.netbsd.org/, http://www.freebsd.org/, http://www.linux.org/, http://www.openbsd.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:39:34 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >NH: William Gibson uses orisha in his first set of books--specifically, I think, in _Mona Lisa Overdrive._ The orishas/loas somehow begin to inhabit the net; even they are not sure how they got there. They refer to the switch as When It Changed. Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ is a favourite of mine. The orisha tradition which Mami practises in my novel is from Trinidad, where it's called Shango. It's not Voudun. (Though Mami does incorporate a bunch of other orisha traditions into her rituals). More later on all the other comments. -nalo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:28:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/4/99 7:13:06 PM, Jennifer wrote: <> This is also true of other ancient paths and various pagan paths, and I've also heard of it in various tribal socities, Native American, South Seas and African. At least among Indo-European and Near East ancient pagan beliefs, the involvement with deity is based on personal piety (all those in-house shrines), and direct confrontation. A lot of *how* deity responds is based on the appropriateness of the question/demand. Maybe the author has something more to say about this? best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:38:06 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jennifer Krauel wrote: Did you believe the bad guy could do such terrible things to his daughter and granddaughter? I would have preferred to see a little more insight into whatever made him so evil. Surely he had some redeeming qualities that attracted the grandmother in the first place. I agree with Jennifer that this level of sadism was hard to believe and it would take some more detail to make me understand why Rudy was so capable of such evil, especially when even the Spirit who gave him the power over death thought that he wouldn't have the stomach for it. Before I realized that Rudy knew the potential heart donor was Mami and that Ti-Jeanne was his granddaughter, I thought that this might change his course of action (once he found out). But then when you find out what he has done to Mi-Jeanne for so long, it makes sense that he would be ruthless... but I still didn't understand where that ability came from. (Former)drug addiction and rejection didn't seem reason enough for him to torture every member of his own family, and then some. Nevertheless, I thought the novel was very enjoyable and moved well. I was engaged by the action and was eager to know what would happen, especially when Ti-Jeanne and Tony are trying to escape Toronto and when Ti-Jeanne faces Rudy on the tower. I really liked Mami and was shocked when she was murdered... and a little dismayed by the forgiving attitude toward Tony at the end of the book. I loved (and pretty much expected) the "change of heart" the politician had after the transplant. The creole didn't bother me much, but i felt myself trying to "hear" the accent and kept hearing what I think was Jamaican, and I wasn't sure if that was the right idea. I thought that almost all of the italicized lines at the beginning of sections seemed weakly connected to the text and didn't do much to complement the story. Were they intended to create a mood? To flesh out the cultural backgound? I wasn't quite sure. All in all, I'd say Nalo did a fabulous job writing her first novel! Hooray! Susan Hericks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:47:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl in the Ring discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/4/99 1:22:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, lesleyah@PRIMEX.CO.UK writes: >The only other sf/f book that that I know of mentions voudou even briefly is _Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh. -- Michael Scott Rohan's "Chase the Morning" uses Voudun extensively; it's marvelously written, as well. One of the main characters is "Mad Mall" Frith, a (historically attested) Elizabethan swordswoman. Heartily recommended; marvelous sense of the strange. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:13:14 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Voudou in SF/F To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 99-01-04 15:35:29 EST, you write: << > >The only other sf/f book that that I know of > >mentions voudou even briefly is _Half the Day is Night_ by Maureen McHugh. > So does Emma Bull's _Bone Dance_ >> Also Terry Pratchett's Witches Abroad ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:17:34 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fwd: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl In the Ring (fwd) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >From: Joyce Jones >Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl In the Ring >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Joyce Jones said: Being severely linguistically challenged, I have to say I had a trouble with the Creole. I know a little Spanish, a few nouns and verbs I kind of mix and match to try to limp through an interview, so I was taken aback by language in Brown Girl. I understood the words, but the syntax was, from my very parochial view, so bizarre that I kept getting caught up in the sentences, wanting to show them to people, instead of flowing with the story. I think that helped the ambiance: Toronto in shambles, beautiful homes deserted or surrounded by stinking waste, children living in subway tunnels -- it helped to have language to take me away from my comfortable life to a world changed in fundamental ways. NH: That's a very intriguing comment, Joyce; thank you. Part of my struggle with conveying the Caribbean creoles I know is that they make such a bred-in sense to me that I sometimes have difficulty figuring out where other people won't understand them. Different vocabulary is usually easy, but phrases aren't. I'm glad that you were willing to take it as being part of the ambience. That's one of the cool things about writing sf; readers seem more likely to want to put up with unfamiliarity. Someone said to me recently that switching amongst languages, dialects and sociolects is a given for post-colonial and many diasporic cultures, so it's natural for their writers to incorporate that reality into their writing. Fine, I like that idea, but I still do want to communicate. I forget if I've said this before, but I notice that people have an easier time with the creole in my writing if they've heard me read in it, or if they have acquaintances from the Caribbean who they've heard speaking a creole. It seems to be more a matter of the rhythm of the speech. Once you can hear that, comprehension seems to come easier. I think Torontonian readers have an easier time of it because there's such a strong Caribbean presence here, many people have some familiarity with the speech patterns. It's the same in the U.K. I was quite taken aback to discover that that's not so in the U.S. I once belonged to an online discussion group for African-American issues, where I spent a bemused week reading American black people trading notions of what they thought Caribbean black people were like. Even when the conversation was well-meaning, it was full of assumptions and stereotypes, and they were very different from the ones I experience here. We get lumped together by skin colour, but we don't know each other particularly. It was a lesson to me. JJ: Favorites in the book: Ti-Jeanne, a typical young adult in many ways, obsessed with a man no good for her, resentful of her grandmother's control and guidance and uninterested in her grandmother's serious work, very unsure of her mothering, needing assistance to connect to this baby and having no serenity to do so, full of undiscovered power which I was thrilled to have her discover. I loved her intelligence. NH: I think that Maryelizabeth was the first one to comment in a review of the book that it talks about how painful family relationships can be. I was glad that someone had noticed. It was pretty important to me to convey that. I live in a culture now where parents hitting children is frowned upon, but I've lived in lots of places where it was par for the course, where adults who experienced it as children and resented it nevertheless know no other way to socialize their kids, so they convince themselves that it was good for them and it's good for their children. Ti-Jeanne and her grandmother love each other very much, but they're still figuring out how to get past the barrier that Mami's brand of tough love has raised between them. JJ: Gros-Jeanne: a healer, also full of power, wanting to guide and protect her family and knowing the limitations of her power. I liked her strong sexuality, it's not something I would have expected from a similar character in a different novel. NH: [g] You know, you're the first to comment on Gro-Jeanne's sexuality? I've gone through a mini-spate of writing sexy senior citizens, probably because I hope to be one. Old women get such short shrift when it comes to sex. As we age, we're supposed to either become invisible or become cariacatures of our younger selves. JJ: Mi-Jeanne: What a sad story, a young girl again resentful of her mother's guidance and protection (and her sexuality) tries to throw off that control and goes to live with her father for whom she feels love, and a protective urge and is crushed so horribly. In Derek Walcott's play "Ti-Jean and His Brothers," Mi-Jean is the bookish brother, the one who's so caught up in philosphical texts about how the world should logically be that he can't deal with anything that departs from that. When the devil comes for him, he's too stunned by that departure from the text to take action. JJ: The ambulance corps: It reminded me of Ray Bradbury's Firemen, take people whom we all relate to in one way and turn them completely around. I imagine paramedics of today might envy to some degree their armor and safety. They were a great visual treat. NH: Thank you. I imagined them as representative of people in the city who had survived by hanging on desperately to old systems. They've got jobs, which are the key to their ability to keep their homes and to buy goods. So they try to hang on to those jobs as they get weirder. They keep trying to play by the book, even though the nature of the work might make them uncomfortable. JJ: The various gods especially the god of disease: Yuck, again though a great visual idea. NH: Shakpana is actually the deity charged with smallpox (dates from a time when smallpox was a devastating killer; it had the power to change lives that only the divine has). He's an uncomfortable one. None of the others is inherently good or evil; even the god associated with dying is also associated with life. But he's just a rivener. I was glad to find a way to use his power that provided some kind of resolution in the story. JJ: The rousing revenge of Ti-Jeanne: what a great and memorable scene. Fun, scary, sickening, glorious, just about perfect as far as I could see. NH: :) Thank you. It was a whole lot of fun. JJ: One thing I absolutely hated in the book: The detailed description of torture, flaying a person alive. As far as I'm concerned, such description is never necessary. OK, I get the idea that the author didn't want to describe Tony as completely worthless. If I was completely disgusted, revolted and terrified just by reading the description I should have a little empathy for Tony who only killed the grandmother because he had been forced to see the torture. I get it, I just hated it. Torture can be described obliquely and have enough effect without terrorizing the reader by involving her so completely in the pain (or worse, giving really despicable people new ideas). NH: I would probably have hated it too if I'd been reading it. I certainly was strongly affected by writing it. It was a few days before I could return to writing the novel. Thinking about this comment of yours has given me the opportunity to wrap words around my position on this. Violence happens moderately frequently in my writing; the world is a violent place. What disturbs me when I see violent death depicted in the popular media is how it's glorified, in part by making it seem sanitized, peaceful and painless. People just close their eyes and their heads loll to one side. Even as a child, I thought that unconscionsably (sp?) irresponsible. You see kids playing at war, and they think it's fun to pretend to take a bullet, it's kind of sexy to them. They have little notion that it is horrible, and it's horrible to inflict. In high school--in Jamaica, I think--I read a poem about World War I by an Englishman who'd been gassed during the war. Don't remember the author, but it's called "Dulce et Decorum Est." (Our teacher told us that pro-war propaganda of that time was "Dulce et decorum est pro patria morii--it is a sweet and fitting thing to die for one's country.) The poem describes the sheer misery of marching in the cold and mud for hours, then the terror of the gas attack, fumbling for masks. Some people don't get them on in time, and the author had to watch his fellows coughing up their own lungs. He ends the poem by saying that if everyone could see the reality of war, they'd rethink that little platitude. Obviously the poem had a huge effect on me; 23 years later, I still remember it. Joyce, you understood exactly why I felt I had to show what Rudy was capable of; I couldn't keep horripilating about how dangerous he was without making it real. And I had to figure out what would be so horrifying that it would induce Tony to kill. Tony's not an evil man, he's just a guy coping badly with an addiction. And he's a healer, life is precious to him. I had to try to imagine what would make someone like that step over what is the ultimate line for him; from healing into killing. And I feel that if I'm going to depict violence--and I will, because it's part of what happens in the world--I have a responsibility not to whitewash it, because I think there's already a glut of that out there, and it's the kind of propaganda that makes it easier to accept increasing levels of violence in our lives. After that one scene, I did gloss much more over the other violent actions that happen. I didn't need to go there any more in the same detail. I'm quite unfond of art that seems to be a gorefest just for the sake of its shock value. It leaves me feeling shaken and demoralised, and to no purpose that I can see. I hope that's not the effect that _Brown Girl in the Ring_ leaves people with. I was actually quite taken aback at first when I read people describing it as horror. But I do take their point now. I'd like to say though, that I'm not giving anyone new ideas. I'm not sure that I could have thought up the notion of skinning anyone alive by myself. Others before me have done that. There are rumours in the literature on orisha traditions that this is what some practitioners of the dark paths do. It's said that it's what Papa Doc did with his opponents. There are also hints that it's a fabrication meant to scare people off; I think that's at least as likely, if not more so. It's also what the "Death of A Thousand Cuts" amounts to, from another culture. Gene Wolfe (I think?) describes it horrifyingly (in one of the Severian books?). And read any descriptions of the tortures that enslaved Africans endured, or a description of how crucifixion kills, and you realise that there isn't anything humans can do to hurt each other that we haven't tried. We keep inventing new ways. BTW, I think horror is as fine a literature as any other. The kind of romanticizing of violence that I'm talking about is something I've seen in all kinds of art forms. JJ: Rather than ending on that note, here's some humor that applies adventures in new languages: NH: :) I think my favourite is "The king is dead. No kidding." -nalo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:05:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nalo H. wrote: <> Not at all. Ti-Jeanne was excellent. Very real. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:08:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nalo Hopkinson wrote: > How about the dialogue? Reactions to the creole? After the first few sentences, as I figured it out, it flowed just fine. It was a very important part of the book for me, it created the rhythm and timing...the voice. I loved it. Sophia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:05:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] January "Locus" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Interviews with our own Nalo, and Melissa Scott (whose photo makes me wince -- sorry, but I am not someone who deals well with the idea of getting a tattoo in general. ouch!) Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:06:52 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] January To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU NH: It's a beautiful tattoo, though (said by a gal with a number of piercings, but I'm chicken about tattoos too), and a great photo of Melissa. If anyone reads my interview and is confused at the content, please feel free to ask me for clarification. Charlie taped the interview in a room with a noisy air conditioner--man, it was *hot* at Worldcon!--and the transcribed result has quite a few garblings of my words in it. -nalo >From: Maryelizabeth Hart >Subject: [*FSFFU*] January "Locus" >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Interviews with our own Nalo, and Melissa Scott (whose photo makes me > wince -- sorry, but I am not someone who deals well with the idea of getting > a tattoo in general. ouch!) > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:03:19 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl, Nalo's comments To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nalo, thank you so much for your detailed response to my comments on Brown Girl. It was interesting that the Disease god was originally the smallpox god, that makes sense. I didn't realize, in spite of the quotations at the beginning of the chapters, that this was in a sense a retelling of another Caribbean folk-story, rather like the Snow Queen was a retelling of a European folktale. You very cleverly made it your own. As for your comments about my comments about the torture scene, I had only thought how difficult it was for me to read it, never considered that a real living woman wrote it. That makes it even worse. I commend you on your strength. To live within that scene long enough to write it is almost too horrible to comprehend. I'm a nurse. I deal with blood and the "natural" pain of childbirth every day and feel ennobled by my contact with these hard working women. However, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to deal with afflicted pain daily, e.g.. child abuse cases. There was a time in my life when I could deal with such pain, maybe I've seen too much, I don't know. I find it too personally painful to contemplate such evil. Which again emphasizes your point. Rudy was as absolutely evil as a human could be. I could read that and understand that and be saddened by it. But it was your torture scene that made me go past an intellectual understanding of evil to a personal experience of it. So, you did well, you did what you wanted, but I choose not to associate with that degree of evil. That's probably why I don't enjoy horror stories or movies. Thank you again for taking the time to discuss your work so thoroughly. Oh, by the way, any movie offers on this yet? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:02:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 01:11 PM 1/6/99 CST, Joyce wrote: > I didn't realize, in spite of the quotations at the >beginning of the chapters, that this was in a sense a retelling of another >Caribbean folk-story, rather like the Snow Queen was a retelling of a >European folktale. You very cleverly made it your own. I found Brown Girl in the Ring and The Snow Queen astonishingly similar. (Brown Girl is strong story--more a novella than a novel, I thought--but I am definitely looking forward to Nalo's next book.) In both we have a powerful older woman who is at odds with her spiritual heritage. Gros-Jeanne is not on speaking terms with her Papa Eshu (sp?) and the Snow Queen, of course, has set herself against the Winter/Summer mythos. Both women have powerful consorts who seek immortality through the blood of innocent victims. Rudy killed his rival Dunstan, and Starbuck killed all of his challengers until Arienrhod (sp)threw the challenge in Spark's favor. Both women tried and failed to pass their power on to a younger woman: Gros-Jeanne lost Mi-Jeanne and The Queen lost thought she had lost all of the clones. Both women found a second chance: Ti-Jeanne and Moon, returned. Both Ti-Jeanne and Moon fell in love with a young man who was not worthy of them. Both young men fell under the influence of the Dark Consort and did horrible things: Tony killed Gros-Jeanne to save himself from Rudy's anger. Sparks became Starbuck and continued the Mer Hunt. Melba is flayed in Brown Girl, the Mer are flayed by the hunters Moon is rescued by the nomad girl. Ti-Jeanne is rescued by the street children. Rudy and Starbuck both die for their sins and are taken by the ocean. Tony and Sparks are redeemed by love. Moon becomes queen and Ti-Jeanne will take Gros-Jeanne's place. I suppose, if you wanted to drag this out, Baby might be comparable to the Mer. I suspect that we have some kind of ur-story here. An archtypal women's story. (Don't ask me where Anderson picked it up!) Are there any other stories that fit this pattern? Rebecca >As for your comments about my comments about the torture scene, I had only >thought how difficult it was for me to read it, never considered that a real >living woman wrote it. That makes it even worse. I commend you on your >strength. To live within that scene long enough to write it is almost too >horrible to comprehend. > >I'm a nurse. I deal with blood and the "natural" pain of childbirth every >day and feel ennobled by my contact with these hard working women. However, >I'm sure I wouldn't be able to deal with afflicted pain daily, e.g.. child >abuse cases. There was a time in my life when I could deal with such pain, >maybe I've seen too much, I don't know. I find it too personally painful to >contemplate such evil. Which again emphasizes your point. Rudy was as >absolutely evil as a human could be. I could read that and understand that >and be saddened by it. But it was your torture scene that made me go past >an intellectual understanding of evil to a personal experience of it. So, >you did well, you did what you wanted, but I choose not to associate with >that degree of evil. That's probably why I don't enjoy horror stories or >movies. > >Thank you again for taking the time to discuss your work so thoroughly. Oh, >by the way, any movie offers on this yet? > >Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:35:24 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fwd: BDG: _Brown Girl:_ replies To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU From: Sophia Hegner Nalo Hopkinson wrote: How about the dialogue? Reactions to the creole? SH: After the first few sentences, as I figured it out, it flowed just fine. It was a very important part of the book for me, it created the rhythm and timing...the voice. I loved it. NH: So you'd be at the other end of the spectrum of reactions to it. Nalo H. wrote: Did a lot of people find it made her seem way self-absorbed? SH: Not at all. Ti-Jeanne was excellent. Very real. NH: :) Which, for someone struggling with the issues she is, might well *mean* a certain amount of self-absorbtion. _________________________________________________________________ From: Joyce Jones <hoop5@EMAIL.MSN.COM JJ: I didn't realize, in spite of the quotations at the beginning of the chapters, that this was in a sense a retelling of another Caribbean folk-story, rather like the Snow Queen was a retelling of a European folktale. You very cleverly made it your own. NH: Thank you. It isn't exactly a re-telling. It does reference Derek Walcott's play "Ti-Jean and His Brothers." I've never been clear on whether the play is based on a folk tale from Derek's native St. Lucia, or whether it all came out of his head. The story line is that there are three brothers: Ti-Jean (everyman), Mi-Jean and Gros-Jean. For reasons I won't go into because I don't want to reveal too much of the play, each brother has to battle the devil one at a time. If they lose, the devil gets their souls. The eldest goes first, then the middle one, then Ti-Jean. The devil takes the form of a powerful symbol of evil-- the plantation slave owner. Gros Jean tries to use strength to beat him. Mi-Jean tries intellect. Ti-Jean has to come up with his own way to tackle the problem. 'Nuff said on that. If people are interested, I know the play was published. Perhaps a search in a library or one on of the online booksellers would turn it up. I was already some way into writing _Brown Girl_ when I realised the parallels between the Jean brothers' struggle in Derek's play and my tale of three generations of women tackling a central evil in their lives. So I renamed them with feminized versions of Derek's male characters, by way of acknowledging the echoes. JJ: As for your comments about my comments about the torture scene, I had only thought how difficult it was for me to read it, never considered that a real living woman wrote it. That makes it even worse. I commend you on your strength. To live within that scene long enough to write it is almost too horrible to comprehend. NH: It was pretty awful. But in my small body of work to date, I've tended to deal a lot with the things that scare me most. Maybe as I face each of them head on, there will be fewer and fewer to leap out and distress my readers. JJ: I'm a nurse. NH: Ah, so you're someone for whom referring to violent death would be more than enough to conjure up images. My father had chronic kidney failure, which he lived with for 19 years before kidney cancer got the better of him in 1993. He was on home dialysis, so my family became intimately familiar with that aspect of the health profession. We were all with him when he died, and I know he was more afraid of the indignity of the transition than of dying itself. The nurses on the kidney ward went a long way to easing his sense of indignity. I'll always remember them as being an amazing blend of compassion and pragmatism. JJ: Oh, by the way, any movie offers on this yet? NH: Oh, I dread that happening. I love Whoopie Goldberg to death, but I never felt quite the same way about her after she put on a 'Jamaican' accent to play a nurse in the film "Clara's Heart." Oog. Her character was supposed to have raised a little North American white boy from birth, so he spoke with a Jamaican accent too. The film was one long, inept sound gag. The boy was played by the (then) kid who went on to play Doogie Howser. He was young enough for his speech patterns to be malleable, so he didn't do half bad. It was cute in a kind of condescending way. But poor Whoopie...! I was dating someone Caribbean then, and he and I both left the theatre because we couldn't bear it. Management gave us tickets to see "Road House" instead. It was abominable. Talk about being caught between Scylla and Charybdis. I fear what corporate film would make of my book. My writing group was teasing me this summer. They're all white, and they started pretending to be the script team that would 'adapt' my novel for the screen: "We just need to make a few small changes...yeah, _White Girl in the Ring!_" "No," piped up another one. "White Girl in the Square!" "I got it! I got it! "White Girl at the Mall!" "Yeah, that's it, Nalo. You wanna write the preliminary draft?" I didn't know whether to blow my beer out through my nose laughing or weep. 'Course, I'm very aware that selling movie rights might mean being able to keep my mortgage company happy for some time, not to mention the bank that holds my loan. So I would consider it, depending on who it is. There are local independent filmmakers here with Caribbean backgrounds who I think could do a good job. And hey, if anybody knows Julie Dash personally...(she made an excellent independent film called "Daughters of the Dust," a magic realist piece set in the U.S. Gullah islands. Her characters spoke in a Gullah dialect and it's the closest thing I've heard on this continent to Jamaican or Barbadian creoles). -nalo http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:15:37 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Fwd: BDG: _Brown Girl:_ replies To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>From: Sophia Hegner;shegner@MAIL.SDSU.EDU >> >>Nalo Hopkinson wrote: >> >>How about the dialogue? Reactions to the creole? >> >>SH: After the first few sentences, as I figured it out, it flowed >>just fine. It was a very important part of the book for me, it >>created the rhythm and timing...the voice. I loved it. > >NH: So you'd be at the other end of the spectrum of reactions to it. First of all, what a thrill and an honor to communicate directly with you, Nalo, about this book! I wanted to add that I've been trying to figure out why this book was so palatable to me. Based on how I've reacted to books with dialects and surreal elements in the past, I'd have expected to be thrown by _Brown Girl in the Ring_. But I wasn't. I got into it quickly, I was quickly hooked, and I read the book in about three hours (I'll probably reread it soon). I have never been to Toronto and have very little experience with Carribean dialects (although I did visit St. Lucia when I was 13). Suffice to say, I don't have the answer yet...except that it was written by a woman, and I have found that I understand what woman say (in writing) a lot more smoothly than what men say (I don't even try to make sense of VCR instructions written by men ). Theories, anyone? >>Nalo H. wrote: >>Did a lot of people find it made her seem way >>self-absorbed? >> >>SH: Not at all. Ti-Jeanne was excellent. Very real. > >NH: :) Which, for someone struggling with the issues she is, >might well *mean* a certain amount of self-absorbtion. Well, exactly. I could see it. She's a young woman who has wrenched herself out of a passionate but disappointing relationship with a man. She is a new mother without any sudden awakening of maternal instinct who is struggling because she wants to do what's right for her child. She is coming to terms with her grandmother, and their difficult and awkward love for each other... Plus she is confronted with the powers of the deities, the knowledge of the evil of her grandfather, the identity of her mother...of course she'd be a little self-absorbed! It fit beautifully. And I am positively grateful that you were so--unforgiving is the only word I can think of--in representing her infatuation with Tony. She knows he's no good for her, he says things that offend her, but it doesn't stop her from succumbing to the desire she feels for him. Very very real. Just wonderful. Sophia Hegner ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:52:36 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] pot pourri again To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nalo: Congrats on BGITR making the final ballot for the PK Dick award!! ~~~~~ Nalo and Steve: Nalo looks lovely and alive, especially in her cover shot with her hair flying in "Locus." It's the placement of Melissa's admittedly lovely tattoo I wince at -- right above and between her breasts. ***** Speaking of breasts, I prefer Xena's body type to Buffy's too, and not just for fightin' reasons. ##### "The Haunting" is definitely brrrr, as is "the Entity," totally chilling. I like WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE best of Jackson's novels, myself. ______ Just to bring this slightly back to the point of the list, one of the most prolific areas of slash fiction is Kirk/Spock. Some interesting stuff out there, written by men and women. Thanks to Susan for her info. IMO, SWITCH HITTERS suffered from the same problem as many theme anthologies -- a variety of levels of quality, because the stories met with the theme qualifications... Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:29:39 PST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Nalo Hopkinson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] pot pourri again To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >From: Maryelizabeth Hart >Subject: [*FSFFU*] pot pourri again >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Nalo: > >Congrats on BGITR making the final ballot for the PK Dick award!! NH: Thank you. It's kind of neat to be able to say that I've been shortlisted to get a Dick. -nalo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:56:13 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU For everybody who enjoyed Brown Girl (that's all of us) check out the new children's book _The Invisible Princess_ by Faith Ringgold. "When Mama and Papa Love learn they are to have a child, they are astonished to hear that their baby will not be an ordinary child. Instead, she will be a princess, who will one day bring freedom to her parents and to all the slaves on the plantation where they live. But Mama and Papa Love fear that their master, mean plantation owner Captain Pepper, will sell her to another owner. They pray that by some miracle she will be kept from such a terrible fate. Indeed, at the moment of their daughter's birth, a miracle does occur: the Powers of Nature make her invisible and the Prince of Night whisks her from her mother's arms to safety." book blurb. The Powers of Nature--the Great Lady of Peace, the Giant of the Trees, the Dream Queen, the Sun Godess, the Sea Queen, the Prince of Night, and others--are powerfully drawn, and if the story is a tad simple, it still makes a warm bedtime story. Rebecca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:29:49 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] more of Nalo's writings To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Those of us who did/do not have access to "Fireweed" magazine get to read Nalo's short story "A Habit of Waste" when it appears in the NORTHERN SUNS (companion to the NORTHERN STARS) anthology here in the US in April. Yay! Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:02:06 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: [*FSFFU*] Nalo Hopkinson interview To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU There's a dynamite interview with Nalo in the latest issue of Locus. It contains a lot of interesting info on the genesis of Brown Girl in the Ring as well as some interesting thoughts on being a woman of color writing science fiction. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: [*FSFFU*] [BDG] Brown Girl -- fairly critical To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi all. I've been tossing back and forth, trying to decide whether or not to send this post, and ultimately I've decided to do so, because I don't like feeling constrained by the presence of the author, and I will take at face value comments that people have made in the past about *all* feedback on a work being welcome. I really didn't love this book. Even though I devoured it, hated putting it down every time I had to, and even though I think it's an important book, and one I am glad I have had the opportunity to read. I just didn't love it the way everyone else seems to. A lot of what I didn't like are small things -- I had a really hard time 'hearing' the dialect, and I really couldn't 'hear' the epithets. I felt there was too much presumed familiarity with Toronto and the CN tower; Toronto isn't Paris or New York, and I've never heard of the CN tower, don't even know what it stands for. This assumed familiarity stood in for thick description of the place, I felt. More of what i didn't like was politically edged, and in part left unsaid: Not a single decent male in the book (except maybe maybe Pavel), and Tony and Rudy were thinly drawn (Tony never even *thought* that Baby was his, just apparently assumed Ti- Jeanne's baby wouldn't be from him?), leaving me with an aftertaste of thinking the rationale for their behaviors was: men'll just do anything for their own jones'. A little uncomfortable with the implied message about organ donation... Not a single white (european 'non- ethnic') person living in all of Toronto (assume Pavel to be Russian, the Gypsy woman was just that), with the exception of a couple of the street kids and maybe Paula, laying down some seriously uncrossable us/them lines -- that all white people got out, that all white people had the ability to get out... And that this stuff was fairly easily visible...cuz' I really don't normally notice this stuff, at least not until someone on this list points it out to me. I tend to get transported by what I'm reading, and miss a lot of those politicized details, but not here. I also had huge, *huge* political problems with the fact that the economic collapse was laid squarely at the feet of tribal land claims. How governments act trying to (avoid) redress(ing) the wrongs they enacted across the last few hundred years could have severe economic ramifications, and that might be an interesting story, but this wasn't laid at the provincial government, but at the Indians. that's a really problematic stance to take. Some things that i did like (cuz there were lots): I always love a story that treats the Powers as real, and religion as a force in people's lives. I loved the scenes around the orishas, Mami's relationship with them and with her community, Ti-Jeanne's edgy discomfort, Tony's refusal to acknowledge the reality that unequivacally presents itself before him... I like the two different powers represented by Mami and Rudy, how they both are important in their communities, and to the world around them, because of how they interact with the orisha's. I like the hope in the midst of despair, that good people can exist and flourish and find each other (the street kids, mami and her people, Pavel and Paula), and that all the so called necessities of the modern world can in fact by survived without...I really like the relationships of the women, Mami to Ti-Jeanne, and Ti-Jeanne to Mami, Ti-Jeanne to Mi-Jeanne. I loved Ti-Jeanne's easily uneasy motherhood. I am pretty uncomfortable with sending this, and would really appreciate *constructive* feedback. The discomfort is in fact the 'why' of why I decided to go ahead. If we aren't going to actually discuss a book, then what's the point of having the discussion? Maybe all of this is because it is a first novel? Rudy Leon PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:43:44 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] [BDG] Brown Girl -- fairly critical To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/18/99 5:48:57 PM, Rudy wrote: <> I was uncomfortable with that, too, Rudy, at first. But the issue is one I've been involved with and following (in the US and elsewhere) for awhile and I was, ultimately, happy to have some mention of a very thorny problem in a work of fiction. Especally, and perhaps I am just being perverse, because it wasn't "knee-jerk" the tribes and tribal claims are all sacred. it is much more involved and mundane and even anti-sacred in some cases than that. I didn't think all of inner-city Toronto was white. Poor yes. I agree about the immediacy of the orisha elements. They were wonderful and *I believed*... best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: releon@syr.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Organization: Syracuse University Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] [BDG] Brown Girl -- fairly critical To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 18 Jan 99, , Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 1/18/99 5:48:57 PM, Rudy wrote: > < economic collapse was laid squarely at the feet of tribal land > claims. How governments act trying to (avoid) redress(ing) the > wrongs they enacted across the last few hundred years could have > severe economic ramifications, and that might be an interesting > story, but this wasn't laid at the provincial government, but at the > Indians. that's a really problematic stance to take.>> > > I was uncomfortable with that, too, Rudy, at first. But the issue is one > I've been involved with and following (in the US and elsewhere) for awhile > and I was, ultimately, happy to have some mention of a very thorny problem > in a work of fiction. Especally, and perhaps I am just being perverse, > because it wasn't "knee-jerk" the tribes and tribal claims are all sacred. > it is much more involved and mundane and even anti-sacred in some cases > than that. Thanks Phoebe, I was expecting to be less well received.... One reason why the land claim issue felt dangerous is that I have been paying very close attention to the Oneida, Seneca and Onondaga land claims currently gaining momentum (after various parts of 20 years stuck in the system) here in Central New York, and following the editorials in the paper, and the letters to the editors, and trying to discuss the matter with my students. It's really volatile here; some folks feel the National Guard should be called in if the courts uphold the rightful claims (and they are rightful-- with treaties in hand and 18th and 19th century legislation directly pertaining...). Folks are calling for border guards, passports, all the paraphinalia and rigmarole associated with foreign nation status. It'll be years before anything legislative happens, but taking the temperature of it lately has made me very very nervous. And yes, most of the land claims aren't very sacred in nature -- to a Western nature, that is. The Lakota won't touch the millions that US gov't deposited in the bank in settlement for the US's un-rightful claimage of the Black Hills; they want the Black Hills. It's not political or monetary, its about *the land*, and the land is a very sacred thing -- I just TA'ed a whole class on this, and am helping to put together a conference on it, so it is hitting very close to my own work right now. And the fact that it was one of the very first things we knew in the book, that Toronto collapsed under riots because of Indian claims, had a really pervasive effect for me. Rudy Leon PhD Candidate Dept. of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:43:07 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] [BDG] Brown Girl -- fairly critical Comments: To: releon@syr.edu To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/18/99 10:29:28 PM, Rudy wrote: <> I suspect an interesting dialogue could ensure, but OT I think. And I'm willing because I write about this stuff (nf), currently preparing an essay that will be published in UK later this year. In terms of Nalo's book, I was shocked, too. And maybe the author herself would shed some light -- on the list or off. But, as I said, I bought it. It seemed to me part of the disenfanchisement of the urban environment. Homes are sacred. Mine certainly is, to me. Neighborhoods, cities, evolve their own form and image and climate. So, the brief and rather casual remark about the First Nation claims seemed to me part of the author's WHOLE picture of disintegration. And -- I don't speak for everyone, Rudy. So, yes, I welcomed your thoughts. I haven't been on the list long enough to know, but I would think people tell the truth and aren't pulling punches because the author is listening in. Counter-productive, that. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:00:07 -0800 Reply-To: shander@cdsnet.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Anderson Subject: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl In the Ring To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Okay, I finally got the book and read it. The list discussed it the first few days of the month, when I hadn't read it yet, and now everybody has clammed up, just when I am ready to talk about it! I have just one question: is there really and truly a sizeable Carribean population in Toronto, or is that fiction on a par with the collapse of the city? BTW, I liked the book. Sharon L. Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:04:35 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] OT: petition / BGITR To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have received an electronic petition on The Taliban's War on Women and would be happy to send it off list to any interested supporters. _______ BGITR I didn't see all the remaining inhabitants of Toronto as non-white, as I guess Rudy did. Although, fairly or not, I did picture them as all dirty -- not filthy, but grimey -- for whatever reason. I don't remember if I had a clear picture of Toronto or not, but I think I may have benefited in that with the CN Tower as the main reference, it took on a large significance for me even before I knew its import. Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:18:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Freddie Baer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT: petition / BGITR Comments: To: mystgalaxy@AX.COM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Re: Email petitions and chain mail. >A Brandeis affiliate with good intentions but bad >methodology started a chain letter last year. > >Please do not redistribute it. Please do not write with further questions >or comments either to postmaster or to sarabande. The current rate of such >messages is around 2000 per day and increasing. Do not reply to this email. > >For the time being, personal mail to sarabande@brandeis.edu is being >delivered, but due to the geometric expansion of Internet chain letters of >this kind, this will probably not be true for long. If you know >sarabande's other email address, please use that for personal mail. > >If you wish to learn how to do something productive about the status of >women in Afghanistan, please refer to the web sites run by Amnesty >International, Human Rights Watch, and the Feminist Majority, >http://www.amnesty.org/ http://www.hrw.org/ and http://www.feminist.org/ >respectively. > >The latter is sponsoring a *real* petition which should be sent *only* via >physical mail or fax, where it might have some effect. Virtual signatures >are virtually useless at best, and at worst lull people into believing >that no real action is needed. The text you received was mostly >plagiarized from the real petition (without credit or reference), but is >different enough that it can not be accepted by the original organizers >(regardless of how the "signatures" were gathered). > >For information on why Internet chain letters are never sanctioned by any >responsible organization, please refer to: > >http://athos.rutgers.edu/~watrous/pbs-funding-chain-letter-petition.html >http://www.wish.org/craig.htm >http://www.nbi.dk/~dickow/stop-chain-letter.txt >http://www.cancer.org/chain.html >http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa021198.htm >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-run-adverts-00.txt >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-run-spew-07.txt >http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:34:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amanda Robbins Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Brown Girl In the Ring Comments: To: Sharon Anderson To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I'm a new addition to the list, but living in Toronto I should be able to answer this one: > I have just one question: is there really and truly a sizeable Carribean > population in Toronto, or is that fiction on a par with the collapse of the city? Toronto does have a large Carribbean population, as far as I know, as well as a large "Carribana" festival around July/August Mandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Comments from Nalo Hopkinson Comments: cc: bl213@freenet.toronto.on.ca, Maryelizabeth Hart To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU To all, Nalo has already signed off before Rudy's post. She (via Maryelizabeth) has provided the following notes on the new posts: "Ah, I see [her] (R. Leon's) point about First Nations land claims. In my mind I was quoting a sensationalist right wing paper giving it their prejudiced slant, but it looks as though that didn't come through in how I wrote it. The way I wrote it, it might be difficult to tell whether I'm trying to portray narrow- mindedness or whether I'm unconsciously revealing my own. " and: "[One last comment to pass on to FSFFU.] Toronto has a large non-white population that's expected to top the 50% mark by next year. I remember reading somewhere that it's the most culturally diverse city in the world. Yes, there is a large Caribbean population. " "And I'll stop even listening in now, so no need to pull punches." posted at the behest of NH's/MEH. donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:50:12 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Comments from Nalo Hopkinson To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 06:33 AM 1/20/99 -0500, Nalo wrote: >"Ah, I see [her] (R. Leon's) point about First Nations land claims. In >my mind I was quoting a sensationalist right wing paper giving it their >prejudiced slant, but it looks as though that didn't come through in how I >wrote it. The way I wrote it, it might be difficult to tell whether I'm >trying to portray narrow-mindedness or whether I'm unconsciously >revealing my own. " Actually, that's totally how I read it. But when R. Leon brought it up, I hesitated to say anything without going back and rereading the passages (which I haven't done yet). - Sophia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:41:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] petition posting / BGITR / OC bookshops To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thanks to Freddie and Kathleen for letting me know of a better way to direct my efforts. ~~~~~~~ Two comments from Nalo, who has gone off list again due to deadlines on the new book: NH: Ah, I see his point about First Nations land claims. I my mind I was quoting a sensationalist right wing paper giving it their prejudiced slant, but it looks as though that didn't come through in how I wrote it. The way I wrote it, it might be difficult to tell whether I'm trying to portray narrow-mindedness or whether I'm unconsciously revealing my own. Maryelizabeth and Donna, I'm not able to enter the discussion again at the moment, but you can pass my comment on to the list if you'd like. and NH: [One last comment to pass on to femsf.] Toronto has a large non-white population that's expected to top the 50% mark by next year. I remember reading somewhere that it's the most culturally diverse city in the world. Yes, there is a large Caribbean population. And I'll stop even listening in now, so no need to pull punches. -nalo http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/ ####### Orange County has Book Carnival in Tustin, although they are steering away from SF and more towards just mysteries as time goes on. Book Barron is a good used place, as is Acres (Miles? Some large measurement) of Books. And anyone in LA in April should try to make it to the LA Times Book Festival! Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:24:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Brown Girl & Native land claims To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Thanks for the background info on the current native land claim situation, Rudy. I can see you this would make you and anyone more sensitive to suggesting that Brown Girl might portray a possible outcome of this kind of worst-case scenario. Let us hope that education and sanity prevail. However, the way I interpreted it in the book was as a series of things that happened that probably seemed the right thing to do at the time but overall just led down a terrible path. I can easily imagine the rest of the world supporting a boycott of a city such as Toronto, on behalf of a campaign to have native land claims respected. And this was one reasonable outcome of that scenario. Unfortunate, and ultimately not having anything to do with the original reason for the boycott, but certainly not disparaging of the native claims. So, I didn't read any disrespect in the story. But then I didn't know what a charged situation it really was. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is in this situation. Clearly the original treaties should be honored. Clearly anyone can accept the idea of a particular piece of land as sacred, even if you don't have such beliefs yourself. But what to do about the people who live there now? OK, that's all off topic I know. Unless someone can suggest another SF book covering this area??? If there isn't one there's certainly fertile ground for one. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:31:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Big Yellow Woman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Brown Girl & Native land claims To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Jennifer Krauel wrote: > It's hard to know what the right thing to do is in this situation. Clearly > the original treaties should be honored. Clearly anyone can accept the > idea of a particular piece of land as sacred, even if you don't have such > beliefs yourself. But what to do about the people who live there now? OK, > that's all off topic I know. Unless someone can suggest another SF book > covering this area??? If there isn't one there's certainly fertile ground > for one. Ursula LeGuin's _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ deals with a planet that has been colonized and the indigenous population enslaved (so does her _The Word for World is Forest_, come to think of it). The slaves successfully rebel and, if I remember correctly, the colonizers are kicked off the planet. Sort of a similar issue? Susan