Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:12:24 +0200 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Please excuse that I'm late with the kick-off. I was, totally unexpectedly, cut off from the internet for some days. A new list member asked me > Is it okay to begin the Great Alta discussion without you? YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. The kick-off by the person who originally nominated the book was introduced because people often were reluctant or uncertain to start the discussion. The kick-off is intended as a clear signal to start but the nominator neither "owns" the discussion nor is s/he responsible for a "good" discussion (for which I am grateful). That said, let's start with the discussion of _The Books of Great Alta_ (TBoGA) by Jane Yolen. TBoGA consists of _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ (SLSD), originally published in 1988, and the sequel _White Jenna_ (WJ) (1989). I moved this summer and most of our books are still in boxes. The last 2 weeks I hunted for the box with the To-Be-Read books (including TBoGA), without success. I've read the first part, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ more than a year ago, so my questions and comments are restricted to that and please excuse that my memory is sometimes vague or faulty of the book (just point it out). I enjoyed the plot, the myth, the prose and the characters. Originally I've become interested in TBoGA because of an essay of Jessica Salmonson on Amazons (or swordswomen) (http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html), in which she writes "Commonly the swordswoman is treated as an anomaly in these novels, even in her own fantasy world, as in the cases of Lynn Abbey's Daughter of the Bright Moon, & Elizabeth A. Lynn's "Tarnor Trilogy." Occasionally she is a member of an anomalous cult, & though not the only swordswoman in her world, she remains outside societal norms, as exemplified in Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Shattered Chain. Rarely the swordswoman is "the rule" as in Phyllis Ann Karr's Frostflower & Thorn, Lillian Stewart Carl's Sabazel, or Jane Yolen's Sister Light, Sister Dark. [...] "The underlying message would seem to be of women's alienation in the real world, as none of these authors have been able to imagine fantasy worlds in which amazons are entirely comfortable with themselves & their environment. None have imagined worlds in which such competence in women is not the special case. A single grand exception is Raven of Samuel Delany's Tales of Neveryon. Though typical of the genre in that she is travelling through patriarchal lands, Raven expresses a world-view radically opposed to the, for her, alien attitudes encountered in male-dominated countries. [...] The reduction of the amazon to anomaly is recent. In the majority of the medieval popular literature & epic poems dealing with heroism, the Amazon in context of her own society is a commonplace. Thus it can be seen that the modern amazon novel shies away from the boldness of tradition in favor of an updated milquetoast approach, devoid, except in Delany's limited case, of Amazon theology & deep-rooted history." Jessica Salmonson cites _The Shattered Chain_ as a negative and SLSD as positive example. There are some interesting parallels and distinctions between SLSD and the Renunciates novels (The Shattered Chain, Thendara House, City of Sorcery). In both series an Amazon society is described. With that term I mean a female-only society that lives in parallel to a mixed-sex society (in contrast to worlds only populated by women, e.g. _Ammonite_ by Nicola Griffith or _Motherlines_ by Suzy Charnas). The Renunciates live in special houses within the mainstream society, the Amazons of SLSD live in a separate area apparently some distance of. In both cases (and I hope my memory serves me right here with respect to SLSD) the "Amazons" have contact with the men of the mixed society and by this way get children. In addition, adult women of the mixed society join the female-only one. With the Renunciates the latter is the only way to become a part of their community. Their own daughters have to experience life in the mainstream society before they are allowed to join. It's seen as the choice of "unusual" or hurt women who give up the benefits of the mainstream (renunciate) to obtain the protection of the separation. In the Amazon society of SLSD this would be an alien idea. The perspective is positive and not defined by loss. In both books the members of the Amazon society learn to fight and not only for self-defense. The Renunciates "work" as mercenaries while in SLSD the women are proud to be fighters. What about sex in-between the members of the community? I cannot remember. The strongest impression is of the connection between light and dark sister. The nature of this relationship I realized only after some chapters, at the beginning I took them to be separate persons. And in a way they obviously are, but not totally (this is fantasy after all). What did you make of the dark sisters? The separate aspects of one person? That's probably so simplified that it's wrong. What's the significance of that the third mother of Jenna shuns her dark sister? Again my memory is hazy, Jenna didn't have a dark sister, did she? (I have to find the book!). Another very unusual aspect of the book is that Jenna is a female messias. Cite another literary example! I don't know any. (In this respect a comparison with _Dune_ might be interesting - I'm in comparison mode today). In general a messias signals a new start, a renewal, the costs are the destruction of the old world, but in this book the Amazon society is completely destroyed and most members killed. Despite the myth I was surprised and expected something else. Nonetheless, I do not remember it as a sad book What did you make of the Prince as "love-interest"? Why is the Amazon society attacked? What do the 3 mothers of Jenna signify (if anything)? So much for today. I hope for a lively discusssion despite the late start and my hazy recollections. Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de www.feministische-sf.de ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:31:37 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Thanks for the kick-off, Petra. Petra said she "enjoyed the plot, the myth, the prose and the characters", which sounds like a win all round. For myself - about 2/3 of the way through I lost the will to continue, and started skipping around, trying to re-engage but failing. I wish I could say something enlightening about why this happened...but I can't quite pin it down. Did anyone else have the same experience? I did find some elements in the book intriguing. Like Petra, I was interested by the notion of the dark sisters - I found the idea quite evocative, and tried to pay close attention in order to keep up to date with what the author was telling us, bit by bit, about the nature of this relationship. But although I was very interested by the idea, I felt that much of the idea's potential remained unexplored - there was depth or tension or revelation that could have been developed from the notion, but wasn't. It ended up, for me, feeling kind of like a special effect. ('oooh, neat-oh'). This seems like a missed opportunity. Petra's comment that this is one of the few books with a female messiah is interesting. I look forward to what the list has to say about this... regards, Heather ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:50:29 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Heather wrote: > Thanks for the kick-off, Petra. Petra said she "enjoyed the plot, the > myth, the prose and the characters", which sounds like a win all round.. I'm with Petra: a really engaging read. Felt I could relax, because I was in the hands of a good storyteller. The divisions into myth, history and story were well done. I particularly liked the voices in the history sections, which connected the whole thing to the way people try to reconstruct Arthurian and other legends: nice to have a good laugh at the expense of present day cautious academics. > For myself - about 2/3 of the way through I lost the will to continue... > but I can't quite pin it down. Did anyone else have the same experience? I did, but not until the second book. The third book was there on the bookstore shelf, and I didn't buy it: I had lost interest. I felt she just didn't have enough deep stuff to say. Some wonderful imagery - like the dark sisters, which would make a terrific series of paintings, but like Heather, I thought she did so little with it. Contrast what Philip Pullman does with the daemons in His Dark Materials: they are so much more psychologically insightful. The dark sisters at times seemed quite autonomous - they had their own lives elsewhere before being brought into our world, and acted independently in our world: but then at other times they mimicked every gesture, every breath, like shadows, and they died with their light sister - they were just too subordinate in the end. The most interesting parts were where Jenna's dark sister would say what Jenna was thinking but too polite to say, or was not even aware that she was thinking - that was good. We should all be so lucky/unlucky as to have someone like that. What are the implications for a feminist/gender-based analysis of the book that only women could have a dark double? There didn't seem to be a good reason for it, nor did the men seem to feel their lack. It was just taken for granted. This one-sidedness may feed into some women's (secretly most or all women's?) sense that they are deeper and more spiritual or something than men. Which would be a fair point to develop in a story - but this story never developed the idea, so far as I could see. Nothing was happening with that whole provocative concept. This is partly what I mean about the books lacking depth . > Petra's comment that this is one of the few books with a female messiah is > interesting. I look forward to what the list has to say about this... Anyone read 'An Instance of the Fingerpost'? Brilliant historical novel, which is completely tranformed in the second half by a sort of female messiah figure - loved that book. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:30:16 -0700 From: Bridgett Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU _The Books of Great Alta_ seemed a lot like a Snow White variation to me. We have White Jenna, a wicked mother and her magic mirror, and even little men. Has anyone here studied early, non-Disney Snow White stories? I would really be interested to hear what you think of this comparison. I enjoyed TBofGA, but I came away feeling somewhat dissatisfied. Perhaps, as Heather said, my feelings have to do with the unexplored potential of the Dark Sisters. When Jenna called her Dark Sister early, I expected something extraordinary from her. Instead, she was like the gun that failed to go bang. On the other hand, I liked the mysterious nature of the Dark Sisters. I think I would rather wonder about them than have them fully explained. As for the characters, I was really puzzled by the way Pynt's personality changed so abruptly at the end of _Sister Light, Sister Dark_. Her character was well developed and, knowing her so well, I felt that I could predict how she would behave in a given situation. Instead, she underwent a personality transformation and acted in ways I did not expect. Could one event, even one as traumatic as the Hame's destruction, affect such a transformation? In real life, I suppose this happens quite a bit, but I simply don't expect it from my book characters. I expect fictional characters to behave in accordance with their established personalities. Was anyone else puzzled by Pynt's behavior? Or did she act as you expected? Now that I think of it, the story didn't follow my expectations, either. I was expecting a heroic journey type of story, but Jenna never did journey through the land and visit all the Hames. The unpredictability was refreshing, but at the same time frustrating. Does anyone have any thoughts on how women were valued in the larger society? I got the impression that women were not highly valued when the Hames were founded (a surplus?), but that by Jenna's time, they were valued as a commodity. Jenna's aunt and uncle would have liked to marry her off, and the blind Alta who was abandoned as a baby was later offered her place in her family's line of succession. However, when Jenna comes back from underhill, female babies are still being abandoned to the hames as is evidenced by Jenna's adopted daughter. Petra asks, "Why is the Amazon society attacked?" While reading, I thought it was because the value of women had changed and that the patriarchal leaders felt they could no longer afford to lose women to the hames. Now I'm not so sure. Thoughts, anyone? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:52:50 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I finished these books last night and have been trying to figure out why I was so disappointed. Here are some of the reasons going through my mind: 1. The Hames seemed like girl scout camps. By this I mean they were simple, shallow, pleasant romps in the woods. There were arts and crafts, nuts and berries, even sing-a-longs. But no real meat. Even the conflicts felt shallow. And they were just so chaste, only occasionally venturing into town to sleep with a man. 2. I got REALLY tired of all the folksy sayings. 3. What does "on the slant" mean, anyway? I get the part about not trying to look for literal interpretations while decoding prophecy, but they really seemed to think it was more meaningful and general than that. 4. Maybe this is part of #1, but why were the women so blase about losing their way of life when the hames were attacked? It's as if they gave up way too easily. Almost like the "ending" meant they were too old to be girl scouts anymore.. If Selden hame survived, then that didn't really end, did it? Are we supposed to believe that the other hames shut down? I think it said that Selden hame never got another priestess, so perhaps that meant that their Altan religion ended, but nobody seemed too upset about it. 5. At some point, the Alta said of Jenna that she loved both men and women. But what did that mean, when the only love interest was Carum? 6. And while we're on the subject, how could it be that there weren't any lesbians? There was only the suggestion of one, Iluna and her grieving friend, and even then it's just implied. I found that just really hard to believe. 7. If the little green men were the ones that gave Alta her magic, including how to manifest their dark sides, then how come the dark sisters didn't show up in their special world under the hill? 8. I agree with Dave that Pullman's daemons were a much more powerful illustration of the idea of the dark sisters. In fact, the Golden Compass was so much deeper and more powerful than these books. 9. Overall these books felt very dated, which seems odd for something written to sound like a fairy tale. I can't exactly put my finger on why. I notice the date of Sister Light is 1988, which is not that long ago. Maybe it's the traditional depictions of sexuality. Anyone else get this impression? Well, that's enough ranting and raving. I did read both books, and was somewhat entertained. But I was quite disappointed. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:04:23 +1000 From: Julieanne Le Comte Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I'm with you on this one Jennifer. I was disappointed and couldn't see much feminist about it, either. The first book, I had read some years ago - and did like that as an appetizer, almost written from Jenna's childlike point-of-view, so I could accept some of the shallowness, in the spirit of the story being from a child's perception - but was expecting more depth as Jenna grew up. But - not even an adventure story, which might have saved it, what a letdown. The dark sisters seem to be an afterthought, Jenna becomes a stereotype romantic 19th-century heroine blushing at her first kiss, and the Hames just keel over and nobody could care less - including me. Julieanne This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:25:09 +1000 From: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi- I don't have much time. I just wanted to say- I absolutely *loved* the Books of Alta. I enjoyed every word thoroughly. Feel that Secret History of Ash is rather similar- derivative? I didnt have the reactions others did re the dark sisters. definately my favourite book of the year, and i would put it on top ten. I will write a more interesting (I hope) post later. Also saw the similarity with Pullman's daemons. And- also wondered at lack of lesbians. However, I personally felt PERHAPS that this was not a lack of lesbian-ness (not a word I guess, sorry) but a lack in general of sexual depiction.. I felt that there *was* lesbianness, but that it was just utterly not remarked on (By author). Obviously, the women of the Hames were very different from people in general.. they lived a kind of.. Buddhist monk type of piousness etc etc... perhaps we can't judge them by the same standards. I simply can't understand saying that its not feminist- am totally puzzled by that comment. I felt that more explanation of the dark sisters would have had a "info-dump" effect... if that makes sense.. prob not, more explanation later. Did nobody else love this book?? Anyone know any more about the fourth book? Maire ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:59:20 -0400 From: Gwen Veazey Subject: [*FSF-L*] Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I probably shouldn't clog the mailboxes with this, since I only made it through 50 pages of _Books of Great Alta_, but I did like the wand-throwing scenes. I could hear the slapping and picture this - very vivid, also interesting with its relation to sword play. I think I would have enjoyed this story more as a young girl. Yes, it offered the comfort of knowing you could relax into a gentle story, but maybe it was too gentle. I wondered if my reaction was because I don't much like fantasy, but then Pullman's books were mentioned, and I realized how much I like them, also Harry Potter books, Wizard of Oz, so that's not it. Have enjoyed all the comments. Best, Gwen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:33:50 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: great alta.. one more thing To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Here's one gripe I left off my earlier list: the prophecy said she would be queen but not queen. What part of not-queen applies here? I thought that meant she might refuse to marry Carum, even if she had children with him. But nothing very un-traditional happened. If she goes out into the country a lot instead of sitting on the throne all the time, does that make her not a queen? Maybe it's the unfulfilled promises that make this story so frustrating. It's not a quest, though it sounds like it will be (repeatedly). It's not untraditional, though it promises to be. The idea of a culture of warrior women just isn't novel enough on its own anymore I guess. And I don't believe it stands up to Leguin or Tolkien, even though some reviews make it out that way. The dark sister idea seems very intriguing, but it's never really explored. Obviously some people really love this book, and I don't mean to disparage your tastes. For me, when I think about this book compared to the others we've read and discussed, it just doesn't compare favorably at all. grumpy jennifer, with no white hair (quite a bit of gray though) and a still-living mother ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:19:09 -0700 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: [*FSF-L*] Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 12:59 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, Gwen Veazey wrote: >I probably shouldn't clog the mailboxes with this, since I only made it >through 50 pages of _Books of Great Alta_, but I did like the wand-throwing >scenes. I could hear the slapping and picture this - very vivid, also >interesting with its relation to sword play. I think I would have enjoyed >this story more as a young girl. Yes, it offered the comfort of knowing >you could relax into a gentle story, but maybe it was too gentle. I >wondered if my reaction was because I don't much like fantasy, but then >Pullman's books were mentioned, and I realized how much I like them, also Harry >Potter books, Wizard of Oz, so that's not it. Have enjoyed all the >comments. I wasn't terribly annoyed by the books, although they left quite a bit to be desired. I did get the impression that the comparisons between children's fantasy fiction were apt, although written ostensibly for adults. The Pullman books deliberately avoid the children's book cliches, and Pullman himself is fascinating to listen to, as he soundly trashes such saccharine "classics" as the Narnia books of C.S. Lewis. Lewis, according to Mr. Pullman, hated children and showed it by killing all his "favorites" before they grew to adulthood. The only one to survive was one too reluctant to stay a child forever, Susan, who grew up before Lewis could kill her. Another "children's" series worth comparison is the "So You Want To Be a Wizard" series, which contain a wonderfully complex cast of characters, including a cute gay (but not overt) couple and enough ambiguity and moral choices to engage an average college philosophy class. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:57:35 +0100 From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I'm very tentatively replying to your post, Jennifer, because it's been years since I read _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and _White Jenna_. I'm wondering if these books come across as simple because they were written for a teen audience. Maybe that's why they also aren't as spicy as we'd like. Doesn't Yolen write primarily children's/teen's books? Re: same sex relationships. My take on the dark sisters was not that they were the more daring alter ego of the light sister, but that they were their lovers. Were they also called 'Blanket Sisters?' or 'Blanket Companions'? or did that term come out of another conversation we've had on the list? Angela ---------- >From: Jennifer Krauel >To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta >Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 4:52 AM > >I finished these books last night and have been trying to figure out why I >was so disappointed <...> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 03:19:10 +1000 From: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Blanket companions.. that was the term that arose from the fact that many of the Hame warrior fought with the male armys.. and shared their blankets. Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly STRICTLY ON TOPIC discussion of Feminist SF/Fantasy and > Utopia [mailto:FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Angela Barclay > Sent: Saturday, 19 October 2002 7:58 PM > To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta > > I'm very tentatively replying to your post, Jennifer, because it's been > years since I read _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and _White Jenna_. I'm > wondering if these books come across as simple because they were > written for > a teen audience. Maybe that's why they also aren't as spicy as we'd like. > Doesn't Yolen write primarily children's/teen's books? > > Re: same sex relationships. My take on the dark sisters was not that they > were the more daring alter ego of the light sister, but that they > were their > lovers. Were they also called 'Blanket Sisters?' or 'Blanket Companions'? > or did that term come out of another conversation we've had on the list? > > Angela ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:16:37 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi Angela- At 02:57 AM 10/19/02 , you wrote: >I'm very tentatively replying to your post, Jennifer, because it's been >years since I read _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and _White Jenna_. I'm >wondering if these books come across as simple because they were written for >a teen audience. Maybe that's why they also aren't as spicy as we'd like. >Doesn't Yolen write primarily children's/teen's books? According to Yolen's web site, these books are intended for adults. She does have lots of children's or YA books as well. >Re: same sex relationships. My take on the dark sisters was not that they >were the more daring alter ego of the light sister, but that they were their >lovers. Were they also called 'Blanket Sisters?' or 'Blanket Companions'? >or did that term come out of another conversation we've had on the list? At first I thought the dark sisters were lovers, when both stepped up to adopt the baby Jenna. But later we find out that's not true, that they are two sides of the same person. As Maire points out, the term "blanket companions" referred to their intimate relationships with male soldiers they fought beside. What about the ending? Do people think she took her husband or her dark sister under the hill with her? I thought Yolen's suggestion that women think she took her husband and men think she took her sister to be more traditional romance stuff. I liked that she left it ambiguous, but that last analysis robbed it of its power for me. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 07:52:27 -0700 From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU > According to Yolen's web site, these books are > intended for adults. She > does have lots of children's or YA books as well. Hey Jennifer! Could you share the URL for Yolen's website with the rest of the list? Thanks Lyla ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:19:25 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Books of Great Alta To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Lyla – Yolen's website is www.janeyolen.com