Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:54:56 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, additional reading To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Candace J. Dorsey, Black Wine additional writings and internet information REVIEWS: SF Site review by Alexander von Thorn http://www.sfsite.com/apr98b/blac31.htm Tiptree award comments: http://www.sf3.org/tiptree/1997/index.html Reader reviews on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book- reviews/0312861818/002-3943275-9826637 Short review by Charlene Brusso for Dazzler (webzine): http://www.redbay.com/dazzler/rrr/cb3/bookrvws.htm Short personal review by Melissa Woo: http://phantom.ehs.uiuc.edu/~melissa/books/black_wine.html Review from "ideasign": http://www.ideasign.com/crowt/blackw.htm Source SF (online bookstore) blurbs: http://www.sourcesf.com/cvrwine2.htm MISC: Awards: 1997 William J. Crawford Memorial Award for first fantasy novel 1998 Tiptree Award (novel) Dorsey Home Page (out of date) http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/dorsey.html Dorsey comments from W.R.I.T.E., 1994 The Writers' Retreat on Interactive Technology & Equipment is a conference for writers, artists, and developers creating new media products and services for the digital publishing industry, hosted by the University of British Columbia. http://www.cstudies.ubc.ca/write/write94/w_cd.html Writer's page for Polestar (Canadian SF information); links & information on Dorsey http://www.baynet.net/~jackl/dorseytxt.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:16:50 +0000 Reply-To: dherald@WIC.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Tixier Herald Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, additional reading To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Genreflecting Books of the Week Site http://www.mancon.com/genre/bwv1n1.html#118an After lurking for a several weeks I just had to drop in. -- Happy reading, Di Herald dherald@wic.net see the Genreflecting page at http://www.mancon.com/genre/ Rosenberg's First Law of Reading "Never apologize for your reading tastes." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:26:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Wow. I really enjoyed reading this. In fact I waited too long to begin, and then resented having to read it faster than I wanted. I wanted the luxury of reading slowly, then re-reading parts just for the physical pleasure of the words. So I'm not going to try to be objective about this one. I think we have a book here that passes the test of "feminist", by any of the definitions we came up with. But there's still plenty to discuss, so let's have at it! Unfortunately I just barely finished the book, late last night, and haven't had enough time to ruminate over it in general. Much about this book reminded me of Le Guin - the spare poetic style that turns out to be far denser than it initially appears, the astonishing detail of characters, the focus on mundane life with only glimpses of fantasy or s-f to remind you it's not your average novel. But I'm no literary critic, so you may have as many reasons why Dorsey's style is different from Le Guin's. Here are some questions off the top of my head, but of course don't limit yourselves to this: How soon did you figure out the different voices didn't necessarily come from different characters? I figured this out before I could say which were the same. What was the purpose of including the Carrier in this story? Didn't you just love the image of the bickering characters on her breasts? Why did Ea disappear again near the end, just wandering off? Was she just no longer needed? What did you think of the very ending chapter, "The new wood"? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:20:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, another question To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I just looked at the on-line reviews from Kathleen's bibliography and remembered another question I had while reading the book. Just before Essa catches the airship she witnesses a riot and massacre. What was it about? It's student-based, and the slogans include "climb the remarkable mountains" for example. It seems quite different from the riot in the "zone of control" but I'm not sure about that either. What role do these scenes of struggle/mass destruction play in the story? Also I noticed our group's effect on Amazon: when I did a search on Black Wine to read the reviews, it helpfully informed me that people who purchased Black Wine also purchased Halfway Human and Alien Influences. Random selection of books? I don't think so. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, another question To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have had a very long and painful day, but I thought I would throw my hazy woozy .02 in (really. 2 cents only), and more coherent thoughts later. At 02:20 PM 8/31/98 -0700, J. Krauel wrote: >catches the airship she witnesses a riot and massacre. What was it about? >It's student-based, and the slogans include "climb the remarkable >mountains" for example. This riot reminded me enormously of Lessing's Marriages of Zones 3, 4, 5 wherein the people of the various zones had been forbidden ages ago (literally) to look outside of their zones; in fact, to forget there existed an outside except in the most necessary forms. The marriages seem to be about reintegrating the Zones and furthering their potential and growth. Since so much of Black Wine was about the journey up/to/through the mountain, and how radical (uncommon?) an idea it was, I didn't even stop to wonder and inserted the whole Lessing scenario unconsciously. Now I've returned the book, and I read it about a month ago, and I'm eager to hear what y'all have to say tomorrow when my brain will be working today. I love that we are affecting Amazon.com; I wonder what else we are affecting. Is there anyone willing to tell us if we are legion? > >Also I noticed our group's effect on Amazon: when I did a search on Black >Wine to read the reviews, it helpfully informed me that people who >purchased Black Wine also purchased Halfway Human and Alien Influences. >Random selection of books? I don't think so. > >Jennifer >jkrauel@actioneer.com > > Rudy Leon Ph.D. candidate Department of Religion Syracuse University releon@syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:00:35 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Kirschling Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine discussion To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU a blue moon and i must delurk and comment on this complex and fascinating book. (there will probably be spoilers herein.) >How soon did you figure out the different voices didn't necessarily >come from different characters? i think i knew the characters were going to be closely linked when the old woman in the cage learned that the slave girl was to be sold to the dark isles and warned her: "Don't fuck the old woman!...Don't fuck the regent. Don't let anybody in...I know, I saw in the mirror. I saw through the wall. I know what they will do to you. To me, I mean. You are me, aren't you?" then there is the book the old woman gave her "to send to her daughter" and the writing therein, which she suddenly understood. these things suggested a story of amnesia, mistaken identity, circular or perhaps parallel timelines. essa's search for her mother, ea's escape from her grandmother...these were further "clues". when the slave suddenly recovered her memory, becoming both essa the trader and the heir to the throne, it was a bit of a shock to me and i began to pay much closer attention. i think that it took this turn of events, as well as essa's encounter with... >What was the purpose of including the Carrier in this story? Didn't >you just love the image of the bickering characters on her breasts? ...the carrier and her voices/faces from the dead, to make the interbraided lives and stories distinct, and to make their relationships to each other clear. the carrier was such a strikingly powerful and imaginative character. as a visual artist and amateur maskmaker i found the image of the faces appearing on her body and speaking fascinating. part of me wanted her to reappear in one plotline or another, while part of me thought that she was incongruous; as the only true "fantasy" character, she could have wandered in from another book or another dimension. perhaps the same dimension as... >What did you think of the very ending chapter, "The new wood"? ...the last chapter. i read this hurriedly as the train was reaching my stop, and i will have to reexamine it, but it frustrated me. it seemed to be a deliberate mystification, re-blurring something that had been made clear. perhaps the "forward to the future" ending with essa's daughter and the trader embarking on a new quest would have been too conventional in such a non-linear narrative, BUT this chapter was completely different in tone, and it may be just me, but it didn't belong there. & who was the old man? the regent? anyway, more than enough said. good evening. karen k. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Content-Disposition: inline X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by piglet.cc.uic.edu id JAA39776 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:24:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Franklin Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, another question -Reply To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (I am a lurker, only drawn out of the woodwork because I was so amazed by Black Wine, although I have LOST MY COPY, which has spoiled my week) I always thought that "climb the remarkable mountains" had to do with the trade restrictions/confusion that seemed to be going on...it seemed as though climbing the remarkable mountains was if not exactly forbidden then discouraged. (Bear in mind that my copy--hardback, too--is GONE) I thought it had something to do with the Black Ships. More generally, I adored the first two thirds or so of the book, but I felt like after the daughter realized her identity the plotting fell apart...I felt that the overthrow of the Regent and collapse of the revolution into (semi) corruption happened too fast. I've been trying to puzzle out the purpose of the book...philosophically it seems somewhat incoherent--revolution doesn't seem to work, although the warm fuzzy folks up in the mountains live in a state of individualist anarchy..what happens to the warm fuzzy folks when the horrible people from down below really do climb the remarkable mountains? I suppose one of the book's central questions is how to survive--as individuals or as a society--the corrupt use of power. How to survive abuse in childhood, how to survive slavery, how to survive the excesses of the state. Does Dorsey really think that recovery is possible? I was really delighted by the remarkable mountains, by the way...I went out to the Rockies for the first time last month and while in Montana I found what a sort of pale shadow of my idea of the remarkable mountains. Also, I have read Doris Lessing's Shikasta novels; I'm a little uneasy with them, since they seem to reflect Lessing's growing disbelief in the reliability of free will and human agency. ( I really really like Lessing even though I emphatically do not agree with the ideas she's put forth in her recent books-- the Good Terrorist and so on. Also, has anyone read the Marthat Quest books? What is up with the last one? I just don't understand the stylistic change and the shift into science fiction...somehow I didn't really like it as much; it was dark in an entirely different way from the others in the series.) Despite the fact that this post seems to be all criticism, I think Black Wine is a wonderful and promising book....now where's MY COPY?!? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I really liked the book, even though I disagree with the main points it's making. The ideas presented in the Black Wine are pretty much against everything I believe in, and the main characters at times are really irritating, and yet, I was not able to put the book down till I read it all. What I really liked was the fact that it had so many female characters -- lots and lots of them. What I did not like that much was the fact that there was not even one decent male character to speak of. Even the regent who is mentioned a lot does not have any personality traits other than representing universal evil. Speaking of such, it did not seem believable to me that the strong woman like Ea was so damn scared of the guy. What was the reason for that? He did not seem to have any will power or intelligence that would made him dangerous in any way outside the power that he did not even have while she was away. And if he did try to hurt her, why could not she just kill him, as self-defense? She obviously was not some sissy-girl afraid of blood, she spent considerable time travelling and living an independent life, so what was so scary about this one jerk? She could have saved do many people from further suffering. Including her own family members. I do realize that the two main ideas of the Black Wine are: a) non-violence; and b) the socialist concept of the evil nature of any kind of individual power. The first one explains why the main characters were beating around the bush the whole book instead of doing something to solve their problems. The second explains why Ea and then her daughter spent most of their lives running and hiding hoping that someone else takes care of the problems instead of using their position as monarchs to help their people. The fact that Ea had seen so much abuse certainly accounts for her emotional problems that would explain her making so little sense. However, Essa did not have this excuse for being dysfunctional. At the same time, even after she regained her memory and figured things out, all Essa did was writing the books. Then she give them as a weapon to someone else to take care of the situation in the country, and when they made things worse, she just took off back into the safety of the nice peaceful outside world leaving her nation to deal with the consequences of what she had started. This part just did not make sense to me. If she was so socially concerned about the oppressed masses, how could she just walk out after starting all that mess? And if she was an individualist who put her own interests before others, then why abdicate the trone and start all that revolutionary crap? And why she never went to see her daughter? IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with people who abandon their children, men or women alike. If you don't want them -- you should not have them. But if you do, you cannot just leave them. The same thing with Ea -- it did not look to me like she ran off for the sake of her daughter. I think, she just got bored in that nice little heaven, so she simply left with no concern about the feelings of those left behind. In any case. This is a very well written, beautiful book. It is as feminist as it could only get. I just wish I could agree with something written there, but it just does not work, no matter how much I try. It's probably the most interesting irritating book I ever read. By the way, I also found it kind of dystopian. It presents five societies: the world of trade with its animosity between sailors and merchants and occasional social unrest; the extra-nice (and completely unbelievable) "communal" world of The Range, full of happy sharing people not giving a damn about the less fortunate ones in the world; the free-spirited and extremely racist world of sailors; the oppressive slave-holding kingdom of the Dark Isles; and the even more primitive, "obligation equals slavery" tribal world of the Southern continent. There is also a glimpse of the Mihn's world, but of that one nothing is known except that they have one name for everyone. IMHO, this makes today's world seem almost perfert. If this is the future, I'm glad I'm not living in it. That's what they call a "dystopia", isn't it? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I too had a wonderful time reading this book. I normally read a good book in an evening, but I took a week on this one to savor it. (I wonder if someone on this list will hate it for the same things that others of us liked...) Different voices: for me the first realization wasn't the fact that one character might have multiple voices, but rather that all the characters/voices were telling parts of the same story. Then it was a fairly simple puzzle to figure out who was who. So when it was mentioned that Essa (in chapter two) had an abacus, I guessed that she was the waif from chapter one; when Essa learned (chapter four) that her mother's face was on the coins of a country, I guessed the mother was the traveller from chapter three. Having gotten that far it was an easy step to thinking the mother was the old woman from the beginning (remember, she said "I know" when Essa mentioned the abacus). Did other people take longer? It felt a little like I wasn't supposed to have made the connection so soon. It seemed that the author was playing with a lot of very powerful and traditional images in this book. The student riot, the government/popular division of "here" and "there" (and you don't go "there"), fleeing on the first/last/only ship out of port (repeatedly), the trend for revolutions to become merely the exchange of masters (Essa's word). Falling and hitting your head and losing your memory, the slave who becomes a princess, the search across the world for your past, and of course the fact that when you finish your quest, what you find isn't really what you wanted... I think Jane Franklin (JFrankln@famprac.umn.edu) had it right when she said this book was about (in part) surviving the corrupt use of power. I didn't see the message as being that recovery was impossible, though -- if you count down through the generations, the leap between each one is astounding. So each person made it through the terrible abuses of her life to do better by her daughter. I suppose there's a sudden break between "the old woman" and her daughter, which isn't well explained and doesn't fit into this idea. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:54:47 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU What I liked best? It pushes the form! best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:20:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine discussion begins To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > How soon did you figure out the different voices didn't necessarily come > from different characters? I figured this out before I could say which > were the same. The abacus. They all had it, one from her mother, one from her grandmother. The fact that the mad woman grew up at the Dark Isles. At first, I thought that there were three women, though. I thought that the waif was Essa's daughter. But as soon as Ea's diary mentioned her going towards The Range, and Essa headed looking for her mother, it all fell in place. > What was the purpose of including the Carrier in this story? Didn't you > just love the image of the bickering characters on her breasts? The Carrier seemed to restore the connection between the stories and meant to spell out the relation of Ea, Egha, and Essa to those who would not have figured it out by then. She also was Essa's "love interest" meant to show her what she had put her sailor spouses through when she left them. The Carrier's charecter did not seem to be developed too deeply but it was still very powerful. > Why did Ea disappear again near the end, just wandering off? Was she just > no longer needed? The end seems rather blurry in general. I think the story starts to kind of deteriorate sometime after the middle. Probably, at the point when Essa writes her books. After that, it seems that the author did not know what to do with the characters anymore. Ea seemed to dissappear mainly because there was no way to incorporate her into the futher development of the story. Maybe her getting some peace would make it too "happy-endy" for the book's moral. > > What did you think of the very ending chapter, "The new wood"? Well, the best idea I can could come up with that Essa had a dream of seeing her mother finally being happy in some other world. Despite the evil cousin -- the regent that somehow stood on her way to that throughout her life. The "new wood" is something that symbolized a new world that Ea, Essa, and Elta were on their way to discover (gosh, now I sound like my high school literature teacher -- the "symbolism"!). Remember there was this "Mother, Cloud, and New Wood" fortune that kept repeating itself for each of them? It seemed like they were going somewhere with it but did not quite reach it. IMHO, this book was written with a sequel in mind. Do you know if there was one? Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:00:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine, another question -Reply To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I got very frustrated with the characters. Essa particularly. I wanted her to move -- do something about the problems. As someone else noted (sorry can't find the reference) -- why was she so afraid? And the ending left me unmoved. Some sections, the perilous shipboard scenes etc were really entrancing, but then I would have to stop reading for some outside reason. When I came back I found it hard to remember what was going on. But, as I noted in an earlier post. She is pushing the form. Applause for that. best wishes, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:03:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Wow, what a novel. Just as Alien Influence had all variety of aliens and alien atmospheres, Black Wine had all varieties of gender relationships, family bonds, procreation patterns, sexual expression, and, alas, torture. The only thing that made it possible for me to read through the descriptions of physical abuse was that the characters kept describing the circumstances as "strange" rather than all the other horrific adjectives that might have been used. To be matter of fact in your description of being chained beneath your dying partner and writing a journal in her blood exemplifies the strangely emotionless quality of the prose. One of the reviews states that the novel showed you scenes through the characters eyes, not explaining what they take for granted in their daily lives. That style made this book so difficult to read yet so rewarding as mysteries were gradually or suddenly solved. I was amazed that Ea just walked away, I thought for sure she would turn up later, when Essa was secure at home; which shows just how tied some of us are to a good old fashioned American happy ending. This book was not about solving mysteries, it was about presenting them, presenting possibilities and trusting the reader to write part of the story herself. When I first met all the trader's cats Minh, Minh, Minh, Minh, Minh I thought that was a clever little touch. I didn't realize that the book would so thoroughly question the value of nouns, forms of communication, the value of music, the value of individuality, the meanings and duties of motherhood, the possibility of just government, the value of life itself. This is one of the books you could take with you if stranded for 10 years on a desert island and find something new at every reading. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:21:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: aileen familara Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com:80) Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU -- Hello! I've been lurking too long on this list but I haven't really been able to participate much because I live in the Philippines and I can't immediately get hold of the books that do get discussed. However, I have read "Black Wine" and I found it very rich in themes, issues and characterization. While there are many motifs that run through the story, such as the quest motif, the generational parallels and divergence, the handling of fantasy and sci-fi elements to make a believable and very enjoyable story story, I did find something I could really sink my teeth into. I guess it was the language ability in all the three characters which struck me. It is not just their facility in languages but the fact that they are articulate, and that they have made a point to pass it on, or revive it. It seems that expression is a survival trait, and the act or process of storytelling a method of bridging many gaps. I also found the silent slave language an interesting device, both metaphor and means for rebellion. Aileen Familara University of the Philippines Diliman, Quezon City Philippines Now MailCity offers forwarding so you can check your MailCity messages and other e-mail all in one place. Go to http://www.mailcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:07:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU The last chapter New Wood was different from the rest of the book, almost like a short story that had been tacked on. When I read it though I got the idea that it was a description of Essa's death. She was journeying toward death accompanied by both the Carrier of Spirits as a positive representation of death and the old man who represented a fearful view of death. The old man told her "You will find your mother...where she went away from you into the future." Then he says "Here you will die...He was trying so clumsily to manipulate her that she laughed out loud at it." The Carrier was now seen as an old woman because Essa was now seeing things in their true form, the Carrier was old. She broke that thin connection that had been formed between herself and Essa "she pulled the string away, and handed her the heart at the end of it. The heart of the world, she thought, waiting for me." She broke that thin connection between herself and Essa because they no longer needed the connection, she was in her heart. It reminded me of the finale of All That Jazz in which the Bob Fosse character is being pulled rapturously toward the beautiful white Jessica Lange angel of death, though instead of being pulled toward the Carrier she was being urged through the door into the New Wood, the only place she could know joy at last because the struggle was over, "It was the rush of joy she felt which woke her fully up." She was awakened in death. Or at least that's how it felt to me. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:17:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: N Clowder Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine is tough going for me To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I am struggling to get through Black Wine. I'm not quite half way through. I like the characters, I admire the writing, the tone is very fine...I think my problem is that my feeble brain is having a hard time holding the three strands of the story together. Before the discussion started and I read the spoilers telling me who was who, I was consumed with the puzzle of the relationship of the various characters - consumed (and eventually irritated) to the point of being distracted from some of the book's other positive qualities. (I confess, I'm not good at figuring out these kinds of things.) Anyway, my question to those of you who did put the pieces together and who enjoyed the book: WHY did Dorsey write it this way? What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion? Maybe I don't have the perspective to answer this for myself since I haven't been able to get through it yet. Thanks for your answers, Nell clowder@mail.utexas.edu Austin, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sidney Watson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine is tough going for me To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi. I've been lurking for awhile, and maybe I shouldn't try to answer this one, since I haven't quite finished reading the book yet. But it seemed to me that Dorsey was playing with the whole idea of identity and individuality. What makes us individuals? Our names? (Then what of the Minh?) Our experiences? (Is Essa the same as Fierce-frightened?) By not giving us the usual clues to identity, as readers we had to grapple with these issues more directly than we might have if the story had been constructed more conventionally. Sid N Clowder wrote: > I am struggling to get through Black Wine. I'm not quite half way through. I > like the characters, I admire the writing, the tone is very fine...I think > my problem is that my feeble brain is having a hard time holding the three > strands of the story together. Before the discussion started and I read the > spoilers telling me who was who, I was consumed with the puzzle of the > relationship of the various characters - consumed (and eventually irritated) > to the point of being distracted from some of the book's other positive > qualities. (I confess, I'm not good at figuring out these kinds of things.) > > Anyway, my question to those of you who did put the pieces together and who > enjoyed the book: WHY did Dorsey write it this way? What was gained by > treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting > it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological > fashion? Maybe I don't have the perspective to answer this for myself since > I haven't been able to get through it yet. > > Thanks for your answers, > Nell > > clowder@mail.utexas.edu > Austin, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Robin Reid Subject: [*FSFFU*] Question of non-linear chronology in novels To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nell asks: "What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion?" The question she asked was in reference to _Black Wine_, but of course it also refers to LOTS of other books, especially those loved to be taught by English teachers and often hated by students. Let me say right from the start that I love reading both some traditional narratives and some non-traditional or experimental narratives, and hate some of each. I don't buy into the theory that one form of literary expression is superior to another, and I believe that literary professors/academics are trained to privilege one form of expression (specifically the "harder" kind) over another. After all, if all literature was "easy" to read and understand, who'd need English teachers, except for grammar? (Very cynical satiric tone intended for last comment!) But why do writers do this...i.e. write relationships as mysteries, puzzles, move in non-linear, non-chronological fashion? After all, literary critics and scholars did not invent this style: it's been around for centuries. Don't believe me? Check out Laurence Sterne's _Tristram Shandy_! And don't assume that only the invention of the printing press led to the 'creation' of such literary forms. Check out transcriptions or even better attend a pow-wow and listen to American Indian storytellers. One form of narrative is probably dominant in mainstream genere fiction: third person narrative (meaning he/she/name, narrative voice not a character), with limited omniscience (meaning narrative voice can report on thoughts and feelings as well as actions and words of one or more characters; usually a mainstream genre novel has one point of view character), linear chronology (events in the plot are told in the order in which they happened, moving from earlier to later), and a "resolution" of some time. The plot often follows the classic pattern: exposition (explanation of background), rising action and complications, climax, falling action, and resolution ("they lived happily ever after" or some version"). The style also tends to be "transparent," meaning not calling attention to itself. When this narrative form is allied with a certain kind of realistic approach (story is set in contemporary period, in 'real' city, with recognizeable characters, no fanatastic elements, etc.), then most people probably are familiar with and find the piece quite accessible. Sometimes there's a first person narrative, a main character telling their own story to you the reader. A lot of traditional SF/F is told in this way. But there have always been writers who experiment... As a result of so many of these stories being read by people, I have students who get to the weird stuff I assign as SOME of our reading. They tell me how "unrealistic" and "weird" it is. But think about it: how do we experience life? As you go through the day, events do happen in a chronological fashion, but how many times do you remember/experience some form of past events? How well can you know people around you? We are all the main character/protagonist in our own story, the story we "tell" ourselves, but we are just secondary characters in others. For example, think of your friends who have relationships--or your coworkers--you see bits and pieces. Even your own relationships, in the beginning, are puzzles and ever changing. There's always different voicdes going on in your head! Think of the people you love who have died--do you love them any less? My grandparents died when I was in third grade--over thirty years ago--and my mother tells me she still talks to them. I would argue, and often do, that the reason popular fictions are often told in the traditional style (defined above) is the reason they are so popular and comforting! They are totally UNLIKE the confused mass of events we call "real life." They impose a totally artificial (and artificial isn't automatically bad--it's just created, by artifice) and comforting order on things. Some writers (and they've been out there for centuries if not millennia) write what is "realistic" literature, realistic meaning how we tend to experience life, not what is familiar or comforting. Often their stories present relationships and characters as a puzzle; foreshadowing is not always clearly indicated; the "ending" of the story is not always a closed ending which provides a resolution, sometimes it's messy and open=ended. We are trained in our culture to expect stories to be told in a certain chronological order, but that's not true in all cultures. Cultures with origin myths that do not have the same kind of Day of Creation, history which leads to Day of Armageddeon and destruction of the entire physical world often have narratives which spiral around more--are trained aesthetically to appreciate a different "chronology." But even within the mainstream Anglo European culture, there have been writers who experiment with the conventional patterns of plot and narrative, who present character in different ways. Are you always the same "character" day to day, even within the same day? Reading the "weird" stuff can be hard--many of these kind of stories and novels require multiple rereadings to make sense of it all. But, often, when the writers know their craft, multiple rereadings will reveal that the novel is not in fact chaos, but is structured around a different "kind" of order. There are repetitions and patterns, and often the chronology spirals rather than goes in a straight line. The works may be harder to read, but they can be very satisfying at times--just as the traditonal narratives may be satisfying at times too. And since I also teach creative writing, I can tell you that writing either form of story is darn hard! Until you've tried to write a novel, you just don't know how difficult it can be. Sorry for the length--hope this little lecture helps in some way! I do want to make it clear that I cannot say why any particular author chooses to tell the story in the way she does--these are ideas I've developed in teaching introduction to literature classes over the past few years, and reading a lot of "weird" novels. Let me know if you'd like to have me list some of my favorites. Some are SF/F, some are not. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Question of non-linear chronology in novels To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nell asks: "What was gained by treating the relationship of the various characters as a mystery, presenting it as a puzzle to be solved? By moving in a non-linear, non-chronological fashion?" I liked the structure of the book maybe because it gave it a spirit of a riddle, which made the story more captivating. To me, books built as riddles add a flavor of intellectual exercise to the experience of the soul which reading usually is. Of course, I'm a Math major, so I like riddles and puzzles in general. Anywhere. Simple things are too often not worth one's attention. Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:17:00 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine, non linear chronology To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Robin, Thanks for your lesson. I hadn't thought about the fact that our lives truly aren't linear, but you're so right. Memories and intertwined relationships are always milling around in the present. Logic might be linear, but life isn't. On the question of when we knew there were different characters, if one analyzes dreams from a Jungian perspective, I think, one is supposed to view all characters as representing aspects of oneself. In that vein you could say that Essa was the complete character, Etta represented the part of herself that wouldn't have suffered from having been abandoned by her mother, Ea, in her caged woman aspect, represented all of our highest fears, kind of like a crazy bag woman (what would happen to me if I lost all my resources?) Ea's mother was the romantic, sensual weak willed self, the grandmother and the cousin-husband were the out of control, dark evil "shadow" aspects of her character, Fierce Frightened was, well, fierce and frightened. Escape from Bondage was one who could devise a whole new way of relating to a bad situation -- his language -- without actually changing the situation. Maybe this dream analysis helps understand how the characters could describe the most horrendous tortures as feeling "strange". In a dream we feel fear, even terror, but maybe not actual pain. At least, I can't remember ever having felt pain in a dream. Isn't that where that idea of "pinch me I must be dreaming" comes from? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:17:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Karen Brighton Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I *finally* finished reading this book. I can't say I liked it very much. I actually decided to give it up at one point before the discussion started. But once I read the discussions I decided to give it another try. I found the sexual violence really difficult to take, this flavored the whole book for me. Did it have to be so graphic? And I wondered how people who were used as sexual objects by their owners, elders, whomever, were able to so *easily* have loving sexual relations with their peers? how could someone so easily switch from fuc*ing to --whatever they called sex among themselves, for pleasure-- Is it all a matter of semantics? I found I did not really *care* about the characters until the very end, most of the time I was only mildly curious. Yet I feel there is a lot more to the book than I got from my initial reading. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:15:39 +0100 Reply-To: terriergraphics@cybertours.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Wakefield Organization: Terrier Graphic Design Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Pat wrote: > > I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre > of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with > lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK > WINE. > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu Pat I hate to be obtuse, but what do you mean? Terri Wakefield ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:19:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK WINE. I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Karen Brighton wrote: > I found the sexual violence really difficult to take, this flavored > the whole book for me. Did it have to be so graphic? And I wondered how > people who were used as sexual objects by their owners, elders, whomever, > were able to so *easily* have loving sexual relations with their peers? > how could someone so easily switch from fuc*ing to --whatever they called > sex among themselves, for pleasure-- Is it all a matter of semantics? Well, I think it's the way it happens to the most of people, especially women. If all sexually abused women became unable to love, then human race would have gone extinct centuries ago. It's the same as bad weather -- even if you have to work the field in the rain and cold every day for the most of your life, it does not mean that you won't want to leave house when you are not forced to do so. For many woman in the world, the lind of violence described in the book is just as customary to witness as bad weather. Maybe even more. In fact, what I found interesting about the violent sexual scenes in the book was theunusual fact that a woman was the agressor. Moreover, contrary to the"norms" of teenage sexuality, it were girls who were watching their grandmother having sex with a slave, and even getting aroused from that, until she started drawing blood from the guy. Despite their shock, the girls kept coming back to watch -- in fact, this peeping was what seemed to trigger their own sexual relationship. It was very refreshing, in my opinion, for this book to admit that female desire is not that much different from male, that teenage girls are just as preoccupied with the stuff as their male peers, and that they can also be aroused by pornography and not just by the "feminine" romantic-emotional stuff. Concerning the violence part, it seems that the author does not have a very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general. Most of the love scenes described in detail are homosexual, like the ones between the sisters or between Essa and the Carrier. The relation between Fierce Frightened and Escape from Bondage is more of that father-daughter kind, and the only one seemingly equal heterosexual relationship is between Essa's parents, which is barely outlined. Ea's partner seems to be no more that "Dr. Watson" whose role is to be the recepient of the explanations of her reasons to leave her world. While the cruelty of the Grandmother seemed to me as one of those "evil old women" stereoptypes. This was one of the parts that irritated me about the book -- women had an equal right for a sexuality, but they expressed it only either with women, or with older men. Even the Mihn guy, who had had some mutual interest with Essa, ended up dating her daughter instead (or so it was implied). Apparently, being old enough to be the woman's father was a requirement for a "good" man-woman relationship, while the other way around it could only be rape. IMHO, Marina http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:44:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: [*FSFFU*] Really dreadful culture, with lesbians To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >it seems that the author does not have a >very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general (Yes, I know I'm quoting two different people.) I think there's a very unfortunate tendency to assume that homosexual sex in books Means Something whereas heterosexual sex is, you know, just sex. I remember the big debate about whether Marghe in _Ammonite_ was a lesbian, and if not wouldn't she have trouble, and shouldn't she have been warned, and if she was a lesbian someone should have said something to notify the reader, and on and on. Now, here we had a female character who (a) didn't seem distressed at the lack of prospective male partners (b) fell in love with another woman (c) slept with her (d) was delighted to bear a child with her. It seems either arrogant or very naïve not to just assume, using Occam's Razor, that what we have here is a lesbian or bisexual woman. People are straight *all the time* in fiction, and it doesn't mean anything. Nor is it declared. It's assumed. If I were a lesbian writing SF, I'd have lots of lesbian characters and it wouldn't mean anything except that I was writing what I knew (don't mean to say lesbian SF writers all do this, I don't have sufficient data to say yea or nay, but I know it's how my writing would come out). And by god I wouldn't feel the need to make a statement about it; the reader would be expected to figure it out when the women started falling in love with, or ogling, or sleeping with, other women. Nor would I have added the lesbians in to make the book more feminist, or more "different" or "radical". I remember hearing similar things about "science fiction with women." Now, I agree that I'd like to read some happy books about happy people. And the points about the older men are interesting; I didn't notice them before, so I'd have to reread the book to see if I thought it was as black-and-white as was suggested. (What about Gata and Lowlyn? And didn't Ea's lover/sister have a husband as well?) But I don't think the recent presence of lesbians in SF means so much, or needs to be explained by the author so much, as several people have suggested over the past many months. I don't mean this specifically to any of the people whose comments I've referenced. It's just making me grumpy. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really Dreadful Culture To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Pat, RE:> I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre >of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with >lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK >WINE. > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. >Patricia (Pat) Mathews You need to prove your point, otherwise I must assume this is homophobia. Taking lesbian to mean - self-identified and preferredly sexual with women, which is what I believe the modern definition can be at times, I review our BDG readings. Books Not On The BDG List: Hand Of Prophecy - ?????? Books Read: Ammonite - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians (no lesbians because there was no issue of identity in a one sex culture) Dreamsnake - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Halfway Human - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Same sex sexual behavior, but no Lesbians Mists of Avalon - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Alien Influences - Realistic Culture, No Lesbians Black Wine - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Fluid sexuality, No Lesbians (possible spoiler info below) . . . . Books yet to Be Read: Shadow Man - Fascinating Culture, Fluid and various sexualities, Lesbians? Snow Queen - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Sparrow - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians donna donnaneely@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:29:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really Dreadful Culture To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I don't understand this post. >From either of you. Offensive/defensive/offiensive. There's no Lesbian stuff here. Black Wine questions and indulges in various forms of love and love-making but isn't homosexual. In a fantasy world, this is not an issue. or that's what we hope. Women make very strong bonds. And sometimes those bonds cross over the "barrier" erected by societies of various kinds, including our own late 20th century mentality. Fantasy ought to do that. That's what it IS. There is a myth perpetuated mostly in male-dominated fiction that women are always at war with each other. Ain't true. It's a male fantasy about women fighting over men. Well, sure, it really does happen. But cannot be extended into women's friendships. They are, like men's friendships, strong and true. I love many women. They are my dearest of friends. Don't make love to them sexually. Love them, hug them. Make love to them in the sense of friendship and sharing. This is not homosexual. This is just love. lightly lightly zozie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:33:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really dreadful culture, with lesbians To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Nice post. thanks. such a tempest in a teapot! zozie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:49:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 9/9/98 9:02:42 PM, Marina wrote: <> Sheesh...from you? Implies that male is the "norm?" Smiling, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Well, I don't think there can be any norm in a field like sexuality. However,I do think that the type of sexuality that for some stupid reason is called "male" makes a lot more sense than all the "more emotional" and "sensitive" stuff that women are _supposed_ to prefer just because it's considered more "feminine". I also think that many women, if given a choice, would prefer the sexual behavior close to that accepted as "normal" from males. Because it means freedom. Women rarely act the same way simply because the social price is too high. Besides, I think that just because something is considered "male" it does not make it automatically "wrong". If that was the fact, why did women want to vote? Or work outside the home? After all, that was a "male norm" too. Sorry if I sound too harsh. I'm just so tired of trying to explain "why would women want to 'be like men'?". As well of having to act like an idiot and do everything backwards just because it's considered "the woman's way" by both the conservatives, who see it as the law of nature, and many feminists, who feel that women _must_ do everything different from men. If that were the case, then why do we wear pants? Because it's "male" and therefore "norm", or because it's more comfortable? Marina On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Phoebe Wray wrote: > In a message dated 9/9/98 9:02:42 PM, Marina wrote: > > < in my opinion, for this book to admit that female desire is not that much > different from male,>> > > Sheesh...from you? Implies that male is the "norm?" > > Smiling, > phoebe > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really Dreadful Culture To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, donna simone wrote: > > RE:> I noticed - especially on the books we're reading - a new subgenre > >of FeministSF. I call it DRC/WL Sf meaning "Really dreadful culture, with > >lesbians." Case in point: Severna Parks' HAND OF PROPHECY. And BLACK > >WINE. > > I hope we don't get too many of these. I'm a depressive anyhow. > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews > > You need to prove your point, otherwise I must assume this is homophobia. > Taking lesbian to mean - self-identified and preferredly sexual with women, >which is what I believe the modern definition can be at > times, I review our BDG readings. What I meant was, that this is the only feminist aspect of these books - that the heroine (a.k.a. chief victim)and a lot of other people are lesbians. Other than that the culture is oppressive, enslaving, and full of mean & nasty people, with occasionally an obscure valley full of peaceful sharing polyamorous people. No, not homophobia. Just a wish that someone would triumph other than by just having a lover. > > Books Not On The BDG List: > > Hand Of Prophecy - ?????? > > Books Read: > > Ammonite - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians (no lesbians because there was no >issue of identity in a one sex culture) > Agreed. Tons of lesbians, no problem with that, the Company was bad enough to be General Jack D. Ripper. > Dreamsnake - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians Very much agreed.> > Halfway Human - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Same sex sexual >behavior, but no Lesbians Hideously depressing culture, unisex Chief Victim. > > Mists of Avalon - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > Alien Influences - Realistic Culture, No Lesbians Sorry. Hideously depressing and so bad you can't imagine how the younger generation gets born and reared. > > Black Wine - Contrasting Good and Dreadful Cultures, Fluid sexuality, No Lesbians What?!?!?!?> > (possible spoiler info below) > . > . > . > . > Books yet to Be Read: > Shadow Man - Fascinating Culture, Fluid and various sexualities, Lesbians? > > Snow Queen - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > Sparrow - Fantastic Culture, No Lesbians > > donna > donnaneely@earthlink.net > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:15:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >it seems that the author does not have a > >very high opinion of heterosexual sex in general > > (Yes, I know I'm quoting two different people.) Before I am drawn into an argument I did not intend to start (since the quote above is mine, and I do not agree with the statement in the Subject line), I'd like to say that the presence of lesbian relationships in the Black Wine did not bother me a bit. Even being terminally straight, I appreciated the opportunity to get a glimpse on a different kind of sexuality. It was interesting. And educational. It did bug me a little that the only heterosexual relations described in the book in any detail were either abusive ones (with the "evil old woman") or the old man/young woman type (arggh!). Either theme is way too stereotypical, and therefore dissappointing in a feminist book. I wish the author stuck to presenting homosexual relations. But it's OK. I won't assume everyone having to write the way I want it. I personally did not find the book "dreary" as much as irritating. Mainly because the heroes kept acting really silly, and because it was presenting ideas that I didn't agree with. Starting from Ea's idiotic reluctance to kill her cousin (at least to protect her family if not herself!) and ending with the revolution (shudder). I have a very low opinion of revolutions and those who promote them. I lived in a country where one of those happened, and I think it's the most retarded way to fight social unjustice. The only thing that's worse is probably terrorism. In other words, I hated the book's "morale", but I really liked its structure and the way it was written. Concerning the lesbian theme, I think it was alright. It seemed to be exactly the way someone explained it: caring relations between women that went beyond friendship. It made sense. Even though I don't share this idea of love, I can understand it. I wish there was a book where heterosexual relations were that reasonable. Marina >I think there's a very unfortunate tendency to assume that homosexual sex in books >Means Something whereas heterosexual sex is, you know, just sex. I remember the >big debate about whether Marghe in _Ammonite_ was a lesbian, and if not wouldn't >she have trouble, and shouldn't she have been warned, and if she was a lesbian >someone should have said something to notify the reader, and on and on. Now, here >we had a female character who (a) didn't seem distressed at the lack of >prospective male partners (b) fell in love with another woman (c) slept with her >(d) was delighted to bear a child with her. It seems either arrogant or very naïve >not to just assume, using Occam's Razor, that what we have here is a lesbian or >bisexual woman. >People are straight *all the time* in fiction, and it doesn't mean anything. Nor >is it declared. It's assumed. If I were a lesbian writing SF, I'd have lots of >lesbian characters and it wouldn't mean anything except that I was writing what >I knew (don't mean to say lesbian SF writers all do this, I don't have sufficient >data to say yea or nay, but I know it's how my writing would come out). And by >god I wouldn't feel the need to make a statement about it; the reader would be >expected to figure it out when the women started falling in love with, or ogling, >or sleeping with, other women. Nor would I have added the lesbians in to make >the book more feminist, or more "different" or "radical". I remember hearing >similar things about "science fiction with women." >Now, I agree that I'd like to read some happy books about happy people. And the >points about the older men are interesting; I didn't notice them before, so I'd >have to reread the book to see if I thought it was as black-and-white as was >suggested. (What about Gata and Lowlyn? And didn't Ea's lover/sister have a >husband as well?) But I don't think the recent presence of lesbians in SF means >so much, or needs to be explained by the author so much, as several people have >suggested over the past many months. >I don't mean this specifically to any of the people whose comments I've >referenced. It's just making me grumpy. >jessie > http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:57:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I didn't actually mean to indicate that any of these comments came from homophobia; I just thought they gave too much credit to heterosexuality as the norm. I've seen a lot of people assuming that lesbian characters are somehow a plot device, or an intentionally written part of the story to make a point, or to "make" a book feminist, or something like that. I'm not sure I'm expressing this clearly. Technically, I don't think we would consider any of the women in _Black Wine_ to be lesbians, because none of them only slept with women, right? (My memory could be wrong, but that's what I remember.) Anyway, to respond to Pat Mathews, I have a better idea of what you're getting at now, but I didn't see the "feminism" of this book so narrowly. I thought this books was feminist because: * it explored many different types of family structures/romantic groupings * it looked at many different types of sexuality * it talked about the problems with having sex when sex was used as an oppressive tactic -- about how to redefine it so that by participating in the same actions, you're not participating in the same thought-patterns, not recreating the same damage * it presented many, many different ideas about the bond between mothers and daughters, stepping far outside the normative cultural images etc etc. For me, all the woman/woman sex was part of the larger exploration of what sexuality was, how it was used, what was good and what was bad, how women could define themselves, rather than having their sexuality define them *or* having other people define their sexuality. And as I said, I remembered several happy, functional heterosexual relationships, so my memory of the book wasn't so heavily weighted towards the actual descriptions of sex. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. jessie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bonnie Bouman Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Really dreadful culture, with lesbians? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Definitely. Most of them were bisexual, not lesbian. On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > I didn't actually mean to indicate that any of these comments came from > homophobia; I just thought they gave too much credit to heterosexuality as the > norm. I've seen a lot of people assuming that lesbian characters are somehow a > plot device, or an intentionally written part of the story to make a point, or > to "make" a book feminist, or something like that. I'm not sure I'm expressing > this clearly. > > Technically, I don't think we would consider any of the women in _Black Wine_ > to be lesbians, because none of them only slept with women, right? (My memory > could be wrong, but that's what I remember.) Anyway, to respond to Pat > Mathews, I have a better idea of what you're getting at now, but I didn't see > the "feminism" of this book so narrowly. I thought this books was feminist > because: > > * it explored many different types of family structures/romantic groupings > * it looked at many different types of sexuality > * it talked about the problems with having sex when sex was used as an > oppressive tactic -- about how to redefine it so that by participating in the > same actions, you're not participating in the same thought-patterns, not > recreating the same damage > * it presented many, many different ideas about the bond between mothers and > daughters, stepping far outside the normative cultural images > > etc etc. For me, all the woman/woman sex was part of the larger exploration of > what sexuality was, how it was used, what was good and what was bad, how women > could define themselves, rather than having their sexuality define them *or* > having other people define their sexuality. And as I said, I remembered > several happy, functional heterosexual relationships, so my memory of the book > wasn't so heavily weighted towards the actual descriptions of sex. Of course, > as always, your mileage may vary. > > jessie > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:50:47 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I sadly miscalculated the time needed to read _Black Wine_. I thought 1 week would be enough, instead it took me 3 weeks to finish it and then only, because I forced myself to read half of the book in one night (till the morning hours) so that finally I could get to the postings on it. However, that does not mean that I did not like the book or that I found it boring, only that, unfortunately, I was more in the mood for lighter stuff. I have to say as for all the books before I just loved the BDG postings on Black Wine. Without them I'd missed many interesting points and angles of the novel. Like some others on this list I found the first half of the book better than the second. IMO this is because the riddle on who is who is solved and the parable-like (?) quality is gone with that. I figured early on that the mad woman is Essa's mother but thought that the waif is Essa's daugther till Essa was thrown out of the Black Ship. Till then I thought that the waif is much younger. I did not understand the last chapter at first. I reread it after the explanation given in a posting here and I completely agree with that interpretation (i.e. that it describes Essa's death). I think that the SF Site review on Black Wine states several interesting points, e.g. on how names are used in the novel. He also points out the theme, which IMO is central to the book: '... in a way, the chain of experience from mother to daughter creates an archetype that encompasses them all. In a sense, each mother in this line creates a world which is safer and more sane than the world she came from, and each daughter rebels against the darkness and injustice of her mother's world. ...' This creating a safer and saner world for the daughter led me think of Essa's great-grandmother. She tortures, mutilates and finally kills her daughter (and her son) but the story she tells when dead made me think that _in a way_ (and in a way only) even for her it is true (that she creates a better world for her daughter). I found these paragraphs in which the great-grandmother tells her story very confusing but I made out that her father impregnated her brain-dead mother several times and carried out genetic experiments to create mutants for sexual games. According to the information given on the side of the review Dorsey will publish 'The Book of Essa' soon. Perhaps it will tell the story of Essa after she goes back to the Remarkable Mountains. But I wonder a bit about that. For me the whole story is closed and a sequel would be awkward. What do you think of the title, Black Wine? It is a beautiful title but I expected it to have more significance to the story. There is one scene in which Essa gets very drunk on black wine and her daughter Elta prefers beer to black wine but otherwise? Did someone figure out whether black wine is different from red or white one (besides the color)? The section in which Ea's mother tells her how she (Ea's mother) was mutilated by Ea's grandmother made the effects of a clitoris circumcision (is that the right expression for it ?) more vivid to me. I mean, normally when I hear of it I am horrified by the pain, the blood and the risks involved. But here I was even more moved by the loss of (common) sexual pleasure and of connection. I did not understand that the regent is so passive before and after the waif/Essa regains her memory. IMO he holds all the cards but does not use them. He is evil and powerful (he kills the 23 participants of the discussion group) but in a aimless way. Perhaps an early sign of his later senility? On 1 Sep 98 Marina wrote: > ... > it did not seem believable to me that the strong woman like > Ea was so damn scared of the guy. What was the reason for that? He > did not seem to have any will power or intelligence that would made > him dangerous in any way outside the power that he did not even have > while she was away. And if he did try to hurt her, why could not > she just kill him, as self-defense? She obviously was not some > sissy-girl afraid of blood, she spent considerable time travelling > and living an independent life, so what was so scary about this one > jerk? She could have saved do many people from further suffering. > Including her own family members. I do not agree. At the time Ea flees she's 19, she grew up with the experience of the power of her grandmother, her parents are afraid of her, too. And then she sees that the regent can use her grandmother. That is scary. Furthermore, she fears that she is/can become like her grandmother (she keeps this fear her whole life). Perhaps she could have killed the regent after her time in the Remarkable Mountains with all the experiences she'd gained but I do not think that she would have done that if she'd got the opportunity because she would not want to become like them. > ... > At the same time, even > after she regained her memory and figured things out, all Essa did > was writing the books. Then she give them as a weapon to someone > else to take care of the situation in the country, and when they > made things worse, she just took off back into the safety of the > nice peaceful outside world leaving her nation to deal with the > consequences of what she had started. This part just did not make > sense to me. If she was so socially concerned about the oppressed > masses, how could she just walk out after starting all that mess? > And if she was an individualist who put her own interests before > others, then why abdicate the trone and start all that revolutionary > crap? Again I do not agree. If I remember right Essa herself pointed out that if she just disposes of the regent and steps into his shoes, things would remain the same even if she tried to free the slaves and other things. Tradition and structures are stronger than one individual, especially if this individual is part of the tradition and tried to change things by acting exactly like her predecessors. Petra *** Petra Mayerhofer **** mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep or death? Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:00:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Bertland Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? Yes, it does. I have been wondering about the title, as well, and this idea is more coherent than anything I have come up with. It seemed to me in reading the novel that in the scenes in which it appeared, the black wine was often associated with memory, either memories inspired by the presence of the wine or memories inspired by the drinking of the wine. This association would also fit nicely with the themes of the novel that deal with the complex relationship between memory, or lack thereof, and identity that I found to be central to the story. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:31:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? I think, the title itself is not meant to carry any specific meaning, the same as, say, _The Name of the Rose_. It's just an image, a symbol that might signify different things to different people, with no interpretation being more "correct" than any other. It's like the names of people -- we all have them, while few of us know what they even _supposed_ to mean. And even when they do, that rarely has much to do what we are, unless we consider it so significant that let it actually affect us. Names are given to people when they are born, with no advanced knowledge of what they are going to be like. The same can happen with books. I think, it's quite possible, that "black wine" was what started the book, the original idea that everything grew from but not necessarily connected to it in any specific way. Of course, I am a post-modernism freak, so this may make little sense to those who are not :). But this is what I think. Of the Sea (at least that's what they say my name means in Roman). http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:31:58 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 9/18/98 4:03:10 PM, jbertlan wrote, commenting on Joyce: <> I agree with both of you. I also got "deep" associations with it -- black water running deep, and wine that was NOT really wine but some other more heady elixir or a kind of drug that brought associations with the inner Self. Lethe... a dream, a sleep, an altered state wherein Essa could both get lost and get found. phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU So.... I only just got to read _Black Wine_ today. My god, what a beautiful, awesome book. I'm still there. Could someone please remind me how to get to the archives for discussions about the book? I'm sorry to have to bother the list with administrivia. =( "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense in English... Heather =) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:39:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sidney Watson Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Phoebe Wray wrote: > I agree with both of you. I also got "deep" associations with it -- black > water running deep, and wine that was NOT really wine but some other more > heady elixir or a kind of drug that brought associations with the inner Self. > Lethe... > a dream, a sleep, an altered state wherein Essa could both get lost and get > found. > I associated the wine with blood (thanks, no doubt to my Baptist upbringing) and family relationships. Black Wine, then, would suggest the tension within each of the mother/daughter relationships and so another connection to the identity issue. Both of these words seem to me to have such complex associations within Western culture, that it's almost inevitable that they would generate multiple readings, even from the same reader. Sid ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Heather Maclean writes: "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense in English... ------------------------------------ Beautifully said, Heather, worthy of the book. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:29:33 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Um. OK. The writing is excellent. The cultures are interesting. The author's ability to weave together all the different lives is past excellence, a style that is just gorgeous and compelling and astonishing. This writer has magic. Not to mention the book cover, which on mine is dull black with shiny outlines of blackberry vines...beautiful. But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. I set the book aside and WILL finish it because I want to see how she crafts the ending. But I have reached the point where I am skimming lines to get to something interesting and I hate doing that. Could it be the Clinton thing? Is it possible (she asked, delicately) to get fuck-storied out?? My copy of Shadow Man arrived, and that was an interesting, challenging, really thoughtful read. People developed...or thought about developing, or remembered...love affairs, but it seemed more interesting and less disruptive of the story-magic. I look forward to more stories by the Black Wine author (book is in a back room at this moment) I think someday she will be a really great writer. But at this time I am looking for more Melissa Scott. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 03:29 PM 9/19/98 EDT, you wrote: >But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I >mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) >scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! >and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. > *blink* I really fail to see how fucking is an impediment to the story. I think the sexual aspects of _BW_ are simply another aspect of language--just as much as the slave sign-language. Sexuality should be, and is, part of life. Admittedly, sexuality in the US is too often occulted and made to disappear. Nonetheless, our sexual urges as women are real, and strong. For my part, the openness and naturalness of sex in this book was liberating. No longer relegated to the shame of the night, no longer tied to the trigger of a hard cock, I found the sex in this book gorgeous and vibrant (no pun intended). "Fucking," as a word, may be shocking if you see the act as dirty; but it soon becomes just another word, as simple and honest as "eating" and "sleeping." For me, the lack of moral overtones surrounding sex--except where non-consentual sex was concerned, in which case Dorsey voices a strong negativity--was utterly liberating, and a joy. I think it makes us re-evaluate the normally hidden nature of the sexuality of women in a truly positive manner. Heather __________________________________________ "Output of your job hmaclean: > Reality is only a question of language. Unknown command - "REALITY". Try HELP." -------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:48:10 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Whoosh. Please, I like sex too. I don't see it as dirty, and agree with pretty much all you say. BUT I honestly saw it as the lesser of her writing skills and doubt it was necessary to the work. But it is her work and she has the obligation to write it as she sees it. I just really had a "Oh, come on, folks!" reaction. Jeez. What's that old joke?....I like chocolate cake with fruit, too, but I don't talk about it all the time. Madrone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Joyce Jones wrote: > What does the title mean? I think this fits in with my thinking that the > book narrates a dream. Doesn't Black Wine sound like a metaphor for sleep > or death? I thought it was very interesting that Elta preferred beer to black wine. It's like how most people in the U.S. would sooner spend 35 dollars on a keg of beer than on a bottle of wine. It's not only a difference in taste but in mind set. All of the other major characters seemed to have a taste for black wine and Elta's preference for beer was another intriguing contrast between her and her foremothers. Elta and Minh were two of my favorite characters in the book. I wish they had gotten more "screen" time. In fact, I would be perfectly happy to read a book about Elta's adventures (if I can get over that horrible last chapter-- saying that I dislike the last chapter would be an understatement). > Joyce > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:51:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Demetria M. Shew wrote: (snip) > This writer has magic. Not to mention the book cover, which on mine is > dull black with shiny outlines of blackberry vines...beautiful. I love the cover! This is one of the most appropriate covers on a book that I have seen in a long time. It's richly textured and has a lush quality that reflects the authors writing style. > But...uh...am I too old for this story (horribile cognitu!) or something? I > mean..I got to the part about the Carrier and yet one more fucking (her term) > scene and I figuratively fell off my chair, mentally screaming, stop! already! > and get on with the story!!!! Cheese and crackers, people. (Spoilers if you haven't finished the book). A lot of readers were more bothered by the violence. What bothered me was how all of the threads that were started and entertwined during the first 2/3 of the book just came unravelled during the last 1/3. There were too many coincidences like how Essa goes back to the village for her mother and just happens to run into her on the side of the river. Or how she runs into Escape-From-Bondage on the way back to the city or how he happens to have the Regent tagging along with him. The only way it would make sense for Escape-From-Bondage to have the Regent with him was so that he could find a nice, quiet place where he could bash his head in with a rock. What really bothered me was how Essa's mother conveniently disappears after Essa has a revelation about their relationship (you can't go home again). How strange that Essa travels half way around the world in search of her mother then loses her again and doesn't go to too great an effort to track her down. I couldn't help but feel that Essa somehow lost the opportunity to build a new adult relationship with her mother that would have helped her to mature. Instead she mopes along to her next misadventure and will forever be a feckless child (she destroys her marriage, abandons her child, rejects Minh and never attempts to repair any of the damage she had done to any of the people she had hurt). > I set the book aside and WILL finish it because I want to see how she crafts > the ending. But I have reached the point where I am skimming lines to get to > something interesting and I hate doing that. There seems to be a lot going on in the book but most of the action is lost beneath the lovely prose and powerful imagery. Some of the images still linger with me long after I put the book down. > Madrone Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:58:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I liked the sex episodes. Seemed to me they came at times Essa needed to take a breath. They were well done, IMO. The bi-sexual nature of them must mean something... Sex is basic nature. And the sex in this book reminded me that our heroine is, finally, just a person seeking and finding. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:11:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 9/19/98 10:55:26 PM, you wrote: << How strange that Essa travels half way around the world in search of her mother then loses her again and doesn't go to too great an effort to track her down. I couldn't help but feel that Essa somehow lost the opportunity to build a new adult relationship with her mother that would have helped her to mature. Instead she mopes along to her next misadventure and will forever be a feckless child (she destroys her marriage, abandons her child, rejects Minh and never attempts to repair any of the damage she had done to any of the people she had hurt).>> thought this worked. She is not perfect. She is damaged. best phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I originally read *Black Wine* several months ago and it's taken me this long to skim through it and get a grip on it again. I found myself resubmerging in its world -- wow, what a book! The first thing I noticed about the book was its wonderful style, free from cliche or repetition. It's rare to find a science fiction work that's truly well-written as well as thought-provoking. And it soon became obvious that sexuality in all its variety was going to be a common theme. I disagree with others who found the sex in the book depressing and sordid. Some of it is disturbing, but some is very affirming and positive. It all depends on the circumstances of the participants. Ea's grandmother engages in very harmful, brutal sex because that is how she relates to everything in her life. But Essa approaches sexuality from a different, more healthy perspective, because that is how she approaches everything. About the multiple viewpoints: I began to suspect the connection between the women at the second appearance of the abacus, when Essa is in the Trader town. Then when it was revealed that her mother had left when Essa was young I imagined that she would reappear eventually, so I counted how many viewpoints were cycling, and there were only three, so I concluded that the travelling diarist must be Essa's mother. I can't recall how I decided that Fierce-frightened and Essa were the same, but I was not mystified for long. I liked how the three viewpoints were distinguished by their tones, Ea's worldly-wise and analytical, Essa's adventurous and spontaneous, Fierce-frightened's cautious and ignorant. And at the end there's Elta, who from Minh's viewpoint seems almost like a Gen X-er, playing in her band, not caring about the past... but who's more complex than that, really. Though her life doesn't have the tragic elements of her foremothers', we can see that it's still interesting because Minh takes the time to get to know her better. The multiplicity of viewpoints seemed to be its own end to me. It's possible that Dorsey was making a point about escaping the cycle of abuse and about the evils of individuality... but I couldn't see it. I don't think she was saying that people are always and only the products of their environment. In some ways Annalise had a sunnier and more adventurous spirit than Ea, though the abuse she suffered appeared to be worse. And Elta shares none of her mother's and grandmother's gift for language -- instead she has music. The message came across to me as more general, something along the lines of "things change" or "people are different from one another." And I saw the book as an investigation of difference, between personalities and generations. And about the different ways people search for meaning. Marina wrote: >What I really liked was the fact that it had so many female characters -- >lots and lots of them. What I did not like that much was the fact that >there was not even one decent male character to speak of. I don't agree at all. I thought the characterizations of Minh, Lowlyn, and Escape-from-bondage were very good, as good as any of the women. The regent did seem somewhat of a caricature, though. At certain points in the book the line between realistic characters and mythic figures seemed quite blurry -- this happened with the Carrier too. I can't say it seems like a fault in the book, though, since I feel that it was in some way questioning the imposition of meaning on our daily lives. (Essa has some misgivings about this early in the book after witnessing the riot in the square. Though it all seemed like chaos at the time her mind "edits" her memories afterward, adding clarifications like sound and motivation.) So maybe these overly powerful characters are meant to seem like caricatures, figures that Essa's mind in some way creates when she is under extreme stress... Just an idea. Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >What do you think of the title, Black Wine? It is a beautiful title >but I expected it to have more significance to the story. There >is one scene in which Essa gets very drunk on black wine and her >daughter Elta prefers beer to black wine but otherwise? Did someone >figure out whether black wine is different from red or white one >(besides the color)? Red and white wine don't appear to exist in this world, so I don't have much confidence that it even resembles wine in its potency. And it is described as being "iridescent" at one point, which would imply some sort of oil content. In terms of its symbolic meaning, Essa seemed to drink it when she was in a mood to push things, to alter her circumstances, emotionally or physically. So it became a sign of change to me, change that could be freeing or wrenching, depending on how it is viewed. Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >According to the information given on the side of the review Dorsey >will publish 'The Book of Essa' soon. Perhaps it will tell the story >of Essa after she goes back to the Remarkable Mountains. But I wonder >a bit about that. For me the whole story is closed and a sequel would >be awkward. I was puzzled by this as well, but I have since come to the conclusion that *The Book of Essa* was the working title of *Black Wine* and her web page simply hasn't been updated yet. Does anyone have thoughts about whether this book is set on Earth or not? And when? I found myself puzzled by what technology cropped up. The reproductive habits of the sailors begged explanation, as did Essa's ability to make light. Also, some of the description of sexual responses seemed... odd. Made me wonder if these people were even human. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: Tricky -- Maxinquaye "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:19:32 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 98-09-19 20:39:26 EDT, you write: << Does anyone have thoughts about whether this book is set on Earth or not? And when? I found myself puzzled by what technology cropped up. The reproductive habits of the sailors begged explanation, as did Essa's ability to make light. Also, some of the description of sexual responses seemed... odd. Made me wonder if these people were even human. >> I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a rotating moon. The people were human, and they were somehow descended from Earth cultures because of the Shakespearean and other literary tags that were still remembered. However, this might have been mere stage dressing: there were so many little bits in this book that seemed to add atmosphere but never really led anywhere. I tried looking at the "Tarot" card readings and symbols more carefully, initially because they seemed significant and because I hoped they might add something to the meaning of the last chapter (the New Wood was the final "future" card turned up in Essa's reading). All of the cards had a general significance and symbolism, but didn't correspond very well to the very simplistic formula offered in the second reading described in the book: that the first three cards from the right signified the past, the center card was a "past-present" or personal significator, and the last three cards signified the future-- an extremely elementary way of reading a spread of only seven cards. The Cloud, the Hand, and the Pit (past) seemed much more relevant to the next couple of years in Essa's life, while the Mother and the Heart could have applied equally to her past and future; the New Wood apparently did apply to her future. The tower did seem to be a pivotal card, but rather limiting as a defining symbol for Essa: was the overthrow of the dynasty the essence of her identity? Did the New Wood have some glancing relationship to the "dead wood" cut from Essa's brain? I liked best the cover (black-on-black grape vines with the strange little chalice/castle card at the top) and Ea's account of sitting beneath Analise's corpse. And Essa stopping to read proofs before fleeing. I'd like to read something else by Dorsey, other than the discussed "sequel" to this book. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:22:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Black Wine: Earth? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 98-09-19 22:21:24 EDT, you write: << I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a rotating moon. >> On second reading (it took some time to find this passage again), she may have been referring to the moon rotating the Earth, although incorrectly phrased: "...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that the earth was round and circled the sun." The setting being Earth would make more sense in a way, because all the weather, terrains, and plant and animal life seem terran. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:00:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: [*FSFFU*] Black Wine To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Heather MacLean wrote: > "Black Wine" as a name reminds me of blood, of anti-privilege (black vs. > white), of the breaking of duality (red vs. white wine: this offers a third > path). "Midnight-blue," it is the thirst of the dark of night in your soul > as you wander the only loneliness of your choice. It is facing the unknown, > drinking it in until the fear turns to laughter, until memories are equal to > dreams. It is the witches brew; it is magic and strength. It is the concept > that doesn't fit into the language, the word combination that makes no sense > in English... > That is awesomely poetic. May I keep it for my quote book and/or pass it on?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:58:01 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I thought the Moon *does* rotate, but it is tidally locked to the Earth, so it always shows the same face to us. I'm sure there's someone on the list who can explain that better than I can. Danny (hasn't read it, but always good for an opinion or two) >Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:22:04 EDT >From: "Kathleen M. Friello" >Subject: Re: BDG Black Wine: Earth? > >In a message dated 98-09-19 22:21:24 EDT, you write: > ><< I had the impression that this was not Earth, because of the reference to a > rotating moon. >> > >On second reading (it took some time to find this passage again), she may have >been referring to the moon rotating the Earth, although incorrectly phrased: >"...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that >the earth was round and circled the sun." > >The setting being Earth would make more sense in a way, because all the >weather, terrains, and plant and animal life seem terran. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:32:17 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Stephanie N. Huthmacher" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU the moon revolves around the earth, but does not rotate in and of itself... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:57:21 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Kathleen M. Friello" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FEMINISTSF Digest - 19 Sep 1998 to 20 Sep 1998 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU OK, I jumped a few steps: (BTW, for an explanation of the moon's rotation: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part5/section-18.html) I thought the rotation of the moon mentioned in the book would have to be discernible; on second reading, I thought that it was our Earth and moon being discussed, but that Dorsey really meant the rotation of the moon around the Earth: "...if the moon did not rotate, scientists would never have discovered that the earth was round and circled the sun." How would a people as yet unaware of the Earth as a sphere be able to observe this "invisible" rotation, and from it be able to intuit the shape and orbit of the Earth? The more "visible" rotation of the moon around the Earth, if it was our Earth and moon Dorsey meant, seemed to me to be what she was talking about. Of course, this could be overly picky; there are many little red herrings in Black Wine, "facts" that don't add up if they're taken beyond face value. However, why bother to drop a hint or indicator like this if it can't be read? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Laura Croft, Ripley, and the wrong types of a feminist hero To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Ms.Devilspin (jenn) wrote: > I was wondering what peoples thought are on that charater from Tomb > Raider.... damn it I cant remember her... hang on... Laura Croff. > So what do people think of her... is she a good thing? Or not? > For years Ive hated that most computer games only allow you to be a male > character and show the female only as a thing to be saved, unless your > playing something like that Barbie game! > So what do people think or Laura Croff? Laura Croft. A British aristocrat turned archeologist, if I am not mistaken, roaming the world in search of treasures, while solving puzzles and battling various evil creatures. Long hair in a braid and a pair of humongous boobs. As the only female hero in a computer game (apart from the couple of women in my favorite Mortal Combat), I think she is great. Even though the company that came up with it was so desperate to make the game marketable to boys (apparently assuming that girls are only interested in virtual makeovers and cute girly fairy-tale stuff), that they: a) made her have a bust that would make Barbi look like flat. It puzzles me how she manages to bounce around with those watermelons on her chest, unless they are filled with helium or something. At the same time, since there are women wearing tripple-D bras, it won't be fair to say that they cannot be superheroes, so I guess we cannot consider her unbelievable just for that; b) as the end of the game, as a prize to the player who manages to complete all levels, she is pictured in a nightie, as opposed to her usual shorts and a tank top; c) the pathetic advertizing campaign of the Tomb Rider, struggling to promote the "girl-hero" among the tough-guy action games (one of which uses "Kill Laura Croft!" as its main slogan, by the way) puts the main accent on the idea of Laura as the player's "playmate" of sorts. For example, one of the game's creators explained in his interview with the Newsweek that they did not want to release a multiplayer internet version of Tomb Rider because it would "destroy the intimate connection between the player and Laura" or something pretty damn close. Another example -- the TV commercial, "Tomb Rider: come where the boys are!" In other words, the computer game industry so far would rather create a thousand versions of virtual tea parties than admit, even in theory, that girls might enjoy violent adventure games. However, considering the fact that half of the feminist community itself is adamant about proving at any cost that women have a "different, gentler nature", it is hard to expect the male-dominated industry to hold a more progressive view. Since even according to _women_, girls are supposed to be interested only in peace, love, and the spirit of sisterhood as opposed to crude "male" fun of butt-kicking, it is not suprising there is not one single action game right now that would be directed at girl teenagers (well, maybe for the exception of those who might be interested in seeing Laura Croft in her lingerie). This attitude is predominant not only in games, by the way, but in the absolute majority of action movies, even those deemed feminist -- the only possible "excuse" for a woman to get violent is to "protect a child". By the way, since someone here mentioned Aliens, that scene where Ripley says "Get away from her, bitch!" saving the poor little girl from the big bad alien queen, is in my opinion, the most disgusting part of the whole theme of the series. It all comes down to the idea that no matter how strong, smart, independent, and assertive a woman can be, her only purpose is still to be (or play the role of) a protective mother. Women just cannot be concerned with anything other than taking care of children -- even in science fiction, and even in a feminist one (like, say, the Tank Girl). Could have just as well stayed in the kitchen and be mommies there. Hate to remind this to everybody, but violence is no more of "male" treat than wearing pants, cutting one's hair short, and working outside the house. Each of these activities used to be (and still are to some people) as "contrary" to "female nature" as physical assertiveness and individualism is today to the significant part of the feminist movement. It's hard to believe how many women consider figures like Joan of Ark (or GI Jane, for that matter) nothing but "honorary males", whatever in the Hell that means, as opposed to "true" female heroes that are supposed to be feeding the poor, saving animals, and rallying for the world peace while attending to their family duties. It is true that women have not had that much opportunity to participate in the political struggles and military conflicts in the recent history. Neighter they were allowed to wear pants and vote. Does that mean that the latter activities are also "unbecoming" of a woman? How exactly does physical fighting makes a woman more "mannish" than say, being an engineer? In my opinion -- and observations -- most women detest violence simply because they were raised to believe that since they are "weaker" any conflict is bound to result with them losing. In other words, any confrontation -- emotional, intellectual, or physical -- is automatically associated with abuse. To many women the idea that they can actually win in a fight, be it a physical, political, or a business one, is uncomprehensible. If you believe that you can never win in a conflict, no wonder you would hate the very idea of getting into one. This fear is thoroughly enforced by the society, making sure that those women who dare to be strong are punished not only by the patriarchy in the face of men, but also by women, including the "enlightened" ones. The latter do believe in women's rights, but condemn the "too assertive" women for choosing "unwomanly" ways of expressing their strength, and exclude them from the women's cause. Since the heroes of this sort are not really women, they are "Schwartzeneggers in drag", they cannot be feminist. "Real" feminists are all environmentalist, pacifistic, and community-oriented. And often more intolerant towards "violent femmes" than men themselves. I do realize than people are different. Some like romance novels, others prefer slasher movies. However, the personal tastes (or more likely distastes) towards certain things do not make these things non-feminist per se. Personally, I hated the ideas presented in Black Wine (beautifully written as it was). In my opinion, Ea's doing nothing to save her family and Essa's walking away from her people after getting them in trouble -- all for the sake of "not becoming like their enemies" -- was selfish and irresponsible, to say the least. It's the same as watching your family slaughtered in front of your eyes and doing nothing to stop the people who do that (by blowing off their heads if you have to) because you "don't want to become like them". The two main characters of Black Wine, in my opinion, did exactly that. However, just because the supposedly positive characters of Black Wine were turning my stomach, it did not make the book less feminist. It had strong female heroes. They might have been assholes, in my opinion, but they still promoted the feminist idea of women as people, instead of the usual sex symbol / mother props they are pictured as in mainstream fiction. So, feminist it was. You know, when people declare something non-feminist just because it does not fit in their ideal of feminism "as it should be", it looks just like the attitude of religious fanatics towards the things they don't like. Those never say that _they_ don't like something -- be it rock music or abortions -- or that it is against their beliefs, they say that it is against God. The same is when some feminists do not like the idea of women asserting their strength in certain way (say, by going to a war, or becoming a successful politician/businessperson). They don't simply say "I would not do this, because I am against violence / not interested in political games". They say: "The women who do it are not feminist figures, their are nothing more than male heroes in drag". Marina, whose favorite childhood toy was a gun, to get which she had to throw a fit in the store to convince her shocked grandfather that it was really something she wanted, despite her "being a girl". http://members.aol.com/Lotaryn/index.html "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society is selling at the time." Naomi Wolf