Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:11:55 +1000 From: Julieanne Subject: [*FSF-L*] Interview with Nancy Kress To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 06:00 PM 14/05/01 -0600, Mary-Ellen Maynard wrote: >Dear Discussion Groupers; > >This month we're discussing *Beggars in Spain* by Nancy Kress. Discussion >will be officially started by the nominator about the first Monday of June. >Enjoy! There is a recent, (9 May) interview with Nancy Kress at CTheory.com site, which mentions Beggars in Spain. For those interested the interview can be interviewed on-line at: http://www.ctheory.com/flesh/tf005.html - Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:25:10 -0400 From: Misha Bernard Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Welcome I'm going to try several different methods to kick-off the discussion for Nancy Kress' novel _Beggars in Spain_, but jump in with any discussion whatsoever! ideas to discuss: 1) for those who had read the novella "Beggars in Spain"- the first section of the book, entitled "Leisha" for those who haven't, but want to chime in anyway (please do)... how did the rest of the novel affect how or what you came away with after that first novella/section? What do you all think of the ways that Nancy Kress uses different characters' perspectives (in this book, and her others if you'd like)? 2) did you sympathize at all any or more so with some characters? For example, I think I was more on the side of Leisha (perhaps because of the first section) and her campaign of cohabitation/integration than of the separatists of Sanctuary led by Jennifer Sharifi. Any comments? I think this becomes more played out in the other 2 novels, but we don't want to jump ahead and leave anyone out. 3) what do people think of the likelihood of Kress' future, or a similar one? Are the Sleepless a potential- or any privileged minority that has more access to power? What about a split between donkeys and livers, or the once-broken barrier, that future 'post-human' groups will be created- such as the SuperSleepless and undergo the same problems before any good rapprochement is arrived at by the main group? 4) gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it was too disturbingly real? Waiting to hear back =) Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:45:09 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > 4) gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it was > too disturbingly real? This book really hit me in the gut. I am a teacher, forced by ill health to retire and try to get disability, after 27 years of teaching. My work has been the primary way in which I defined myself for a good long time now. And suddenly -- I have no work. I feel like I have no purpose, no reason to live. And while I believe in the individual's right to choose life or death, I am not ready to die...today. But I have, in the book's lingo, become a beggar. Not only am I ashamed and angry, but after Jennifer Sharifi's reaction, I was beginning to thing I should commit a very public hara kiri. And issue a gilt embossed invitation to you know who. It was a relief to me that the author didn't agree with that sentiment. My brother (he's a nurse, and has inherited the same disease I have) and I have had many discussions on the value of the individual (if any) when that individual can no longer contribute to the community. We don't agree. One interesting fact is how you define "value". When I was earning money, I always said that a person's value did not depend on work done. Now that I am no longer working, I am feeling pretty valueless. On the other hand, when I was earning money, I wouldn't have given often to a beggar. Now, I probably would. Just some random thoughts.... --s ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 07:33:31 +0100 From: Elizabeth Billinger Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Sharon Anderson said: > This book really hit me in the gut. I am a teacher, forced by ill > health to retire and try to get disability, after 27 years of teaching. My > work has been the primary way in which I defined myself for a good long time and > I have had many discussions on the value of the individual (if any) when that > individual can no longer contribute to the community. And I wanted to respond - nothing to do with the book by now - and say that as far as I'm concerned participating in these discussions is a valuable contribution to the community. Maybe it's not so tangible as teaching and seeing your students progress, watching them pass exams etc, but it is still an activity that helps other people to increase their knowledge and understanding. It's something I value. Lizbeth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:50:42 -0700 From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU This is long and weaves on and off topic so if you are easily bored disregard, grin Its been a long while since reading this novel but I remember my reaction was basically, we are so close to having designer babies it scares me a bit because you consider the thousands of children in real life who are born live for a little and die unloved, who could have been loved somehow if there were little things like food and shelter and schooling. Then you read about people fighting over frozen embryos who spend tons of money to preserve the DNA of someone they loved when somewhere on the planet is a child who needs to be loved to survive and is so desperate for it, but it never arrives in time or if it does, it turns into the wrong kind of love. Then there is a separate issue that gets me down a bit, is this physical drive to have to reproduce. I cannot fathom why women in general (of the women I have associated myself with whether in an academic setting or around my own area where I reside) get horrified when another woman mentions in passing when the subject comes up she chooses to not have children. I decided not to reproduce when I was 13 and with the exception of a brief window of time where the maternal thing hit me at 18, have not had the inclination since and I am now 34. Margaret Atwood really hit that on the head in Handmaid's Tale, but am digressing off topic here... I mean, remember that couple who did a fertilization procedure to find an embryo that matched the tissue type of their daughter who was dying of a type of Leukemia so they called it a designer baby called upon to serve a purpose? After farming eggs then fertilizing them it was the very last zygote that was the match. I remember when this novel came out, it was just in the news they were starting to run all those machines to identify DNA, back in 1991 or so when the race was starting? So the concept of making a child who never needed sleep was not so far fetched. But you know whenever they mention anything that smacks of remaking perfectly designed children, older folks think of the Nazis and the master race. So Kress captured in her tone those running fears that inhabit all of us who could speculate "what if?" And this would be the right sort of climate in America to have this sort of growing dichotomy between those who have and those who have not, to make it an even wider spanse if people who have were able to create their "dream child." > 4) gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it > was too disturbingly real? And being the nosy gal that I am (grin) I had to comment on what Sharon said: > This book really hit me in the gut. I am a teacher, forced by ill > health to retire and try to get disability, after 27 years of teaching. My > work has been the primary way in which I defined myself for a good long time > now. And suddenly -- I have no work. I feel like I have no purpose, no > reason to live. And while I believe in the individual's right to choose life > or death, I am not ready to die...today. But I have, in the book's lingo, > become a beggar. I really really believe in a cultural sense, people treat change in vast, very monumental ways. Where it is an American custom to define yourself as what you do, but when it gets tossed about in the cultural mix, it can take on many different forms. I was very ill and am currently disabled myself. And I had to learn something very important or I wasn't going to make it. That sometimes things change for a good reason, whether it is your health (as in my case it was Severe Depression), or you face a loss (like the job before you became disabled), and like any loss there is a time you take to grieve over it. I took a year off this past year to learn about myself, that and to give my body the rest it needed, because I had been for the previous five years, patching myself up in order to move onward with my degree, and working, and caring for my elderly father, and there wasn't anyone to say to me, you need time, and you need to go rest. So against everyone's advice, I said am getting off the merry go round and taking a breather. At first there was guilt (my professors and friends at school commented man wish *I* could take time off like that but life won't let me, thing is, I have learned that anyone can do anything they want to, least in this country), then the first five months I was like so ridden with angst because I was not *doing* anything. But you know I was doing something. I was helping my father learn to rest too, he was used to hard physical labor, then he got very ill in 1999. We sort of took a vacation together, as the world went through its daily grind(6am the foghorn at the Santa Fe station sounds, at 5pm it sounds again indicating the day is done), we would spend afternoons talking, growing a garden, planting fruit trees that have given us some great Blood oranges and Apricots, or if either of us wanted to, slept all day, then watched a movie or took a walk later in the evening----we had all this FREEDOM! and it was not until this past March we started feeling I dunno how to describe it other than, content, calm, maybe normal? There are people in this world who think if you are not working as hard as they are, you are lazy. But you know, I graduated in 1999 with my BA in English, and I did not get to enjoy the feat of doing it until about January of this year. Because I had it in my head not to stop and see what I had accomplished, I had to go get a job and make money and run that rat race or else I would get left behind...and that was what stopped me, who the hell am I to get left behind from what or who? I was a single woman for gawd sake! I could do anything I damn well pleased! Then was around Christmas when all these folks I had made friends with over the years started remembering me and asking about what I had been doing, and I would say I needed a rest, and I would hear wow, you look fantastic, am so happy you got what you needed. That was when I felt like this whole experiment in terror, of saying stop I need to get off this bandwagon for a bit, worked out for me. You can't be any good to yourself if you do not treat yourself well. So this may be a gift of time to you Sharon, to breathe, to do whatever you want, as long as your body receives what it needs, and if it is rest, then it might be for now, that is what the body is telling you. I think the Beggar part of this novel is more attuned to say someone who worked in an auto plant then finds out they found a way to make production of cars better using better made human beings, so someone with the skills of an autoworker would feel as if they had taken every bit of what he was because they took his job. It is a bit different with people who are knowledgeable about a lot of different things, because out of that knowledge you have more choices, much like without the need to sleep, these children were able to think out problems and run businesses because they had the means to contain more smarts and had the time to accomplish more with their gifts. Oh and the cultural thing I mentioned at the beginning of this spiel, grin, was I notice in my own culture, that being of Mexican-American culture, when it seems you have been handed a certain lot in life that means it is a chapter of your life ending, it usually means you have another door open to something else. In plaintalk when something bad happens to my relatives, they have this ability to simply start over even when they are in their last years of living. For me anyway, starting over was after my divorce in 1994 with nothing to my name, I had a net worth of zero. Now that I have finally gotten the rest I need, I can see much more clearly the steps I can take to fulfilling a decent life for myself. I remember telling myself when I got done with this book, Kress is not far off the mark as far as the technology went, because remember, they are trying to trademark or patent those DNA they are using for those code of life books...makes me think about the possibilities. Ordering a child is not that hard to do if you have the cash in our country. Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:19:03 -0700 From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I've had quite a busy month. Jo Ann, what you say about designer babies made me think a lot. I have a disease that is caused by genetic predisposition and I sometimes wonder if I had the choice to alter a future child's genes so s/he wouldn't have it, would I actually go for it? My illness may have made my life hell, but it has made me who I am today. I have a lot to thank it for really because it's made me a tougher, more tenacious person than I was before I got sick. Also, I've become very knowledgeable about auto-immune disorders and about the shitty things that go on in hospitals and how incompetent and stupid some medical professionals are. If I were to alter my child's genes so s/he would not have the possibility of getting sick, wouldn't I be saying that my disease is an inherent flaw? If I can't accept it in my child, how can I accept it in myself? I would want my children not to have to suffer like I have, but what if medical science is much improved by the time I have children anyway? The advances in the treatment of my illness have been amazing just in the past 10 years! I can totally relate to what you are saying about needing some time off to slow down and enjoy life. I've had to do that a few times now. I sometimes feel like a failure because other people are judging me because I'm not productive. But I still have a full life and I'm not just sitting around doing nothing. I'm also going back to college in the fall and it's not like college is somehow easier than working for a living- especially for a perfectionist like me who feels driven to get a 4.0 every damned semester. I do plan on doing something with my life, even if it means working from home or working part time or just being a career college student. However, I feel like I'm doing something worthwhile with my life just reading books, doing yoga, and doing crafts and that I don't need a job to make me feel fulfilled or like a real human being. I just wish I had more of a choice in the matter and wasn't forced by disease to not work. I liked Beggars in Spain because it made me think a lot about the ethics of bioengineering. Some things about the book bothered me and seemed a bit off, but overall, I liked it. I liked the characters a lot too, especially Miri and the other Supers. I was conflicted in how to feel about them: pity for them being so odd or admiration for their superior intellects. Has anyone read the other two books in the trilogy? I plan to get them out of the library sometime this summer. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:45:27 +1000 From: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Personally, I found the underlying idea in Beggars in Spain that inspired a lot of the debate in the book very disturbing... ie that why should the productive support the unproductive. Maybe cause I am not from the US, (am from Aus)... maybe cause US is so capitalist with such a strong division between rich and poor. I like to think that here, anyway, that is really not the question. I just couldn't stomach the idea at all, because it seems to me, that no matter how hard working, productive etc etc you are, you never now what is around the corner- accident, disease, or divorce, depression, substance dependency, that might turn a productive person in to non-productive person.. and *vice versa* - a 'beggar' or street person, whatever, gets it together, and becomes productive. And then, who is to say what is productive and what isn't? So you should never complain about supporting the 'non-productive' cause (first of all, its a very dangerous statement to make, that someone is non-productive ie some people say that single mothers are unproductive etc) and secondly, the productive person who doesn't see why they should use resources to support the non-productive, might very well become non-productive themselves - and vice versa. So did I go on enough about that? : ) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:00:14 EDT From: Marilyn Gibson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I just have to say to Jennifer that a genetic predilection for a disease is not a certainty that one is going to have it. I had lupus and my mother had lupus, but I used it as a life path in a way. My survival and the fact that I don't presently battle the disease enabled me to find answers I never would have found. Marilyn www.hangingbyastring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:26:10 -0700 From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU This coming friday John Stossel (think that's how you spell his name) of 20/20 will have a special that discusses why there is no reason to be afraid of science and the wondrous new discoveries occurring right now in our current lifetime...there is supposed to be a segment about designer babies and cloning issues that may contribute with this book discussion. It is friday at 10pm Pacific although it may be on earlier central time you would need to check your local tv guide. I left some messages on my laptop so being here at the desktop I cannot retrieve them without an inordinate amount of frustration or an act of congress so, just wanted to say thanks for those who wrote to me about my earlier post. There is something else here Kress uses very effectively to get us all to think about our own personal situations and talk about these matters that are very close to us, the fear factor. Fear of what we do understand and how it creates this fear of both wanting to know what's what with us and at the same time, fearing what the outside of us contends us to have/be/become, if that makes sense? When you have been raised to live a certain way for so long, there is an unspoken underlying fear some people have that all of that can be lost in a moment in time. With others, there is a constant growing fear that what you have now will disappear in an instant. With Kress, it is sort of fear on a mass scale when the regular humans start treating the designer grownups as freaks, something to regulate because who knows what they will do when they reach full maturity they may take over the world then where will all the humans end up? The part that I had to reread because I lost the sense of belief was when the designer folks(am calling them that until I can locate my copy of the book on the shelf was moving a ton of stuff all weekend and I am so pooped!) begin their plans to live off planet. Until then I thought at the time, being the 1990s when I read this, that it was more of a current thing with me than more futuristic making spaceships or whathaveyou to live off planet, so it took me a time to think of the setting as futuristic even though there were plenty of clues about it, think it was just me trying to put my current time into the plot. Before I end this, just wanted to say sometimes it is nice to belong to the off topic list too, because some of the topics you cannot post here sometimes become very interesting discussions. There are times where both lists sort of sit dormant, but take it from me, when they both get lively it is very good to belong to both, grin. Hugs Jo Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:40:27 -0700 From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I found it disturbing too. I'm very much for supporting everyone in a society, but I have some family members who abuse the system, so I have mixed feelings about "beggars." I would like to think that most people who are getting social services are not like my cousins though and really do need the help. I know I need Medicaid in order to survive, but it's hell getting it. My old worker was a total bitch and made me feel like I was lazy, scummy, etc. because I don't work. She even had the nerve to ask, "Why bother with college if you can't work?" You'd think they'd want someone to better themselves in whatever way possible, but they just see it as if someone can go to college, they can work. But I'm going to college from home and I can't find a work at home job! I find it frustrating that in the US people are often defined by their jobs, rather than by who they are. There's so much more to me than just being a potential worker. Maybe if I hadn't gotten sick, I never would have stopped to think about it though. Maybe I just would have followed the herd. Wow, it's amazing what a book discussion can make me think of! Jennifer At 05:45 AM 6/25/01 +1000, Maire wrote: >Personally, I found the underlying idea in Beggars in Spain that inspired >a lot of the debate in the book very disturbing... ie that why should the >productive support the unproductive. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:09:58 -0700 From: John Snead Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Marilyn Gibson wrote: > I just have to say to Jennifer that a genetic predilection for a > disease is not a certainty that one is going to have it. I had lupus > and my mother had lupus, but I used it as a life path in a way. My > survival and the fact that I don't presently battle the disease > enabled me to find answers I never would have found. Fair enough, but the difference is that if a genetic fix can be found then you would have to decide *not* to give it to a child and so remove any chance that they will get the disease. Your parents never had that option. To be quite honest, with any serious condition like Lupus I can't imagine someone not getting such a fix for their child, any other alternative strikes me as cruel. I think most of us agree that the people who don't give their children medical care for religious reasons are possessed of a fairly dubious morality (personally, I think they are all nuts). While the idea of actually "improving" a child is quite controversial, merely removing the chance that they will develop a dangerous, potentially deadly or debilitating disease quite honestly seems nothing more than an act of kindness and compassion. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:27:51 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Misha Bernard asked: >gut reactions to the novel? Like it, hate it, can't believe it, it was too >disturbingly real? [...] what do people think of the likelihood of Kress' >future, or a similar one? Are the Sleepless a potential -- or any >privileged minority that has more access to power? I had a mixed reaction to *Beggars in Spain*. On the plus side, I liked that I couldn't guess how the plot was going to unfold -- new characters and events kept surprising me. And I found individual moments, like the end of Book I, very powerful. On the minus side, I thought the basic premise of sleeplessness was absurd the way it was presented (sleep evolved to keep animals hidden away from predators? puh-leeease.) and the argument that lies at the heart of the book (the place of "beggars" in society) was poorly developed. In an interview (available at http://www.lysator.liu.se/lsff/mb- nr28/Interview_with_Nancy_Kress.html), Kress says that Yagaiism and by extension the characterization of Sleepers as "beggars" is based on Ayn Rand's objectivism, a worldview which Kress herself "eventually outgrew [...] as many people do". Yet nearly all of the Sleepless in Sanctuary, who are supposed to be so much more smart and productive because they don't need to sleep, still haven't outgrown this philosophy after 70+ years! They continue to make gross overgeneralizations about Sleepers and pursue a rigid "us vs. them" agenda that is out of all proportion to the situation, even later on in the "Liver" stage of history, when most people seem to have forgotten the Sleepless exist. Am I alone in thinking these folks aren't very smart after all? Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American! No surprise, then, that the world outside of the US plays a negligible role in the book.) I kept thinking, "Who says intelligence has to feed the GNP? Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" The last two books, "Dreamers" and "Beggars", take a whack at these questions, but I didn't find them satisfying. The whole novel seemed to be arguing that the Sleepless weren't actually "better" than the Sleepers, yet along come the Supers, who easily see the flaws in their parents' thinking and appear to be better, more moral people simply because they are subtler, more far-reaching thinkers. Huh? Where does the author really stand here? And the lucid dreaming plot line seemed too little, too late. I couldn't help wondering why none of these geniuses had thought of the possible benefits of dreaming 300 pages ago. I did enjoy how the book highlighted the relationships between women. Leisha's bond with Alice was intriguing and ultimately mysterious. Were we supposed to believe they had a psychic connection? I wasn't sure. It made me laugh to think of Leisha getting a bouquet of flowers EVERY DAY from her sister -- the thoughtfulness that was still somehow aggressive read true to me. And though I was frustrated by Leisha's dryly rational personality and her fear of emotion, I was relieved that her epiphany and optimism at the end of the book was unconnected to a romance. In sum, I found that despite its flaws the book did engage me and made me want to argue with it, which is a measure of success, I suppose. Now it's time to go home, enjoy some "unproductive" music or television, and eventually drift off to sleep -- a refreshing habit I would never want to do without! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:01:59 EDT From: Marilyn Gibson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU The problem with your premise is the side effects. As I look back on it, I feel that it was by no means certain that I would get lupus when I did. I can pinpoint the reason for the first flare and, if I had known, would not have had all my wisdom teeth out at once at that time of stress, in addition to the sulfa drugs that initiated a flare which was a result of emotional stress as well as toxic drugs. Who is to say that another prophylactic drug would have less of an effect and, in preventing a disease, would lead to an even greater one? Marilyn www.hangingbyastring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:54:31 -0500 From: Susan Hericks Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Janice wrote: >Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. >Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute >that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better >than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the >pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so >American!...) Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" This was one of the things that really bothered me about the sleepless (and the premise of what they were like). All they seemed to use their extra time for was work. There were never any artists or musicians or mystics among them. Late in the book one of them comments how the sleepless have never been interested in (collecting) art. How absurd! I also felt like the opening promise of the book that the sleepless would be completely joyous was a total lie. For people who were never supposed to be depressed, they were still grasping, scheming and hateful toward anyone not like them (for the most part). Aside from the children in the playground, I don't recall much joy or fun at all. At the end, I couldn't buy Leisha's optimism that Jennifer would change. Anyone who would kill their own children because their difference was too much of a threat is not going to just come around to giving peace a chance. At the same time, Jennifer was so one-dimensional that she was east to hate, easy to see as the evil manipulator. In general, I felt that the characters were not fleshed out well, even Leisha. Miri seemed the most engaging to me. It struck me that the slight physical grotesqueness of the "supers" and the response to their difference was in some contrast to the response to the first sleepless, who were unusually beautiful. It's not so much their different way of thinking that sets them apart from their parents and grandparents but their stammering and twitching and big wobbly heads. Interesting. I agree with Janice that the lucid dreaming was a little to late, and perhaps too obvious, yet I was glad that dreaming came back as an important link to (at least) problem solving and creativity. Yes, those super-smart sleepless did seem pretty dumb to not figure that out sooner! From the Things-I-Will-Never-Say files, I actually overheard a woman tonight saying what a waste of time sleep is, that there is so much to do! Now there's someone underestimating the incredible work of the sleeping brain (and the sheer pleasure of sleep itself)! It was difficult for me to accept the "science" of the book that sleep could be safely and profitably eliminated. And yet it is a fascinating idea. Like others, I was left feeling the book was interesting enough to grapple with, but pretty flawed in many ways. And now I'm off to "waste" 8 or 9 hours sleeping! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:16:55 -0700 From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > From the Things-I-Will-Never-Say files, I actually overheard a woman > tonight saying what a waste of time sleep is, that there is so much to do! > Now there's someone underestimating the incredible work of the sleeping brain > (and the sheer pleasure of sleep itself)! It was difficult for me to accept > the "science" of the book that sleep could be safely and profitably > eliminated. And yet it is a fascinating idea. Another, similar, fascinating idea was presented in a recent short story in Asimov's (don't have it right here, sorry!); it presented a world where there's a drug that could postpone puberty, allowing children to remain more productive, etc., without the raging hormones. The idea was that once they were out of school, they'd take the reversal drug, but many of them chose not to. They have the physical disadvantage of small stature and they had to fight for their rights as full adult citizens. For a short story, it went over a lot of interesting (to me, anyway) ground. Did anyone else catch that story? -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:27:18 -0700 From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU There was one thing that bugged me about the sleepless thing as well...in our current time science has concluded that sleeptime is when the brain goes to work repairing itself when damaged...thus I was thinking how can Supers become the way they are if their brain never repairs basic elements, unless this was the point Kress was trying to have us consider, that being those little nips tucks and repairs are what kept most normal sleeping people from going mad or from taking extremes in normal everyday activities whereas someone deprived of opportunities because they never gave the brain a chance to catchup and do its routine maintenance is like running a car until it is out of oil and you burn up the engine? Even though the functioning adult has what appears to be this super work ethic to do twice as much in life as someone who sleeps, the toll on the brain I would think would have to be close to an obsessive quality or result eventually having never had a chance to have rest to repair tissue? And maybe sleep being taken away and not missed is like having our imaginations taken away, because we no longer need to dream because we supposedly think and work twice as long as a normal person imagination is no longer needed because something gets made created or invented based on pure thought process, leaving the fantasy/dreamtime sort of stuff out of the equation. Jo Ann who had some pretty neat ideas arrive to her during sleep last night wink ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:22:44 +0200 From: Diane Severson Subject: [*FSF-L*] Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Hi Janice, It could be that I am remembering this incorrectly, however, I was under the impression that Leisha was the only one of the older generation Sleepless who remained a Yagaiist. It was the Supers led by Miri who claimed also to be Yagaiists. Diane On 27 Jun 2001, at 0:01, Automatic digest processor wrote: > In an interview (available at http://www.lysator.liu.se/lsff/mb- > nr28/Interview_with_Nancy_Kress.html), Kress says that Yagaiism and by > extension the characterization of Sleepers as "beggars" is based on > Ayn Rand's objectivism, a worldview which Kress herself "eventually > outgrew [...] as many people do". Yet nearly all of the Sleepless in > Sanctuary, who are supposed to be so much more smart and productive > because they don't need to sleep, still haven't outgrown this > philosophy after 70+ years! They continue to make gross > overgeneralizations about Sleepers and pursue a rigid "us vs. them" > agenda that is out of all proportion to the situation, even later on > in the "Liver" stage of history, when most people seem to have > forgotten the Sleepless exist. Am I alone in thinking these folks > aren't very smart after all? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:52:13 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Haven't quite finished Beggars, due to higgledy piggledy order of mail order arrival. But I absolutely agree with Janice & Susan: Janice: Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better... "....Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" Susan: All they seemed to use their extra time for was work. There were never any artists or musicians or mystics among them. This one sidedness is the theme that resonates with many list commentators, in one way or another. For me, the sleepless 'enhancement' was like an exaggerated version of the personality traits I co-exist with every day - and, too often, for much of the night...;-) - in my workplace. I think this is making it difficult for me to get enthusiastic about reading about more of the same.... cheers, Heather p.s. (Have finished Gumshoe and BrainPlague...which arrived earlier. Gumshoe: fun. BrainPlague: amazing. Look forward to picking up discussion on these, when they kick off.). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:32:05 -0700 From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I also found the basic idea behind Sleeplessness hard to accept. And the fact that all they used their extra time for was work made me think they would get bored- especially with no art and no creativity. Did they even read novels and if they did, was it possible for them to enjoy books (or enjoy any art for that matter)? I too enjoyed the relationships between women in the book. I liked how Leisha and Alice were used to show contrast between Sleepers and Sleepless. And now that you mention it, it was nice that Leisha didn't wake up because of a relationship. I thought it would be something she was endlessly searching for after her few failed relationships in the book, but it was nice to see her without a man in her life later on. Jennifer- very agreeable tonight :) At 04:27 PM 6/26/01 -0500, Janice E. Dawley wrote: >On the minus side, I thought the basic premise of >sleeplessness was absurd the way it was presented (sleep evolved to keep >animals hidden away from predators? puh-leeease.) >Maybe part of the problem is the way intelligence is portrayed in the book. >Most of the characters seem to assume that "intelligence" is an attribute >that merely makes people more efficient and able to work, work, work better >than people who have less of it. More discoveries, more inventions in the >pursuit of economic growth and a new manifest destiny. (It's so American! >No surprise, then, that the world outside of the US plays a negligible role >in the book.) I kept thinking, "Who says intelligence has to feed the GNP? >Where's the fun? Where's the art? Where's the subtlety?" >I did enjoy how the book highlighted the relationships between women. >Leisha's bond with Alice was intriguing and ultimately mysterious. Were we >supposed to believe they had a psychic connection? I wasn't sure. It made >me laugh to think of Leisha getting a bouquet of flowers EVERY DAY from her >sister -- the thoughtfulness that was still somehow aggressive read true to >me. And though I was frustrated by Leisha's dryly rational personality and >her fear of emotion, I was relieved that her epiphany and optimism at the >end of the book was unconnected to a romance. > >In sum, I found that despite its flaws the book did engage me and made me >want to argue with it, which is a measure of success, I suppose. Now it's >time to go home, enjoy some "unproductive" music or television, and >eventually drift off to sleep ­- a refreshing habit I would never want to >do without! > >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:35:23 -0700 From: Margaret McBride Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU The comments about Beggars in Spain and some discussions I had at WisCon have made me more aware of what makes me respond most strongly to fiction (and what books get on my reread list). I like books where the characters have to make moral decisions and then have to live with those decisions; I like books where characters change. I enjoy the plot only books too, of course, but the ones that stay with me are ones that make me think in some way. Beggars in Spain fulfills those criteria plus I got involved with the characters and the story while I was reading it. I've found it interesting how many of the comments on line this time have related the book directly to personal lives. If not directly, we are all indirectly making choices that resonate with this book all the time: How much money do we think the government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Did you know that at various times some states wouldn't give welfare if an "able-bodied man" was in the house? I've taught essays dealing with welfare in writing classes and there is a lot of conflict about how we deal with poverty...questions I think this book raises beautifully. I am willing to give it some slack for suspension of disbelief problems because of the issues it raises. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:02:25 +1000 From: Maire Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Margaret wrote: How much money do we think the government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? Maire: To me, the issue is more: how much money should the govt give to two kids in a family with no income... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 06:26:36 -0700 From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Beggars in Spain To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU another interesting book on this theme, particularly, is zoe fairbairns' BENEFITS -- fairbairns is an english socialist. i refer you to this book because my response to these two questions below was: maybe we should consider how much is it worth to humanity to have the next generation fed/clothed/taught etc.? then i remembered BENEFITS: the dark side of a payment-for-mums program. lq On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Maire wrote: > Margaret wrote: How much money do we think the > government should give to a woman with 2 kids on welfare? > > Maire: To me, the issue is more: how much money should the govt give to two > kids in a family with no income... Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net